Posted on 03/22/2014 1:35:03 PM PDT by PhilipFreneau
Was "Babylon The Great" a Symbolic Name for Jerusalem?
Recall that Jesus said:
"… it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem" (Luke 13:33.)
That is a very important statement to keep in mind when considering the following passages: and later in the same chapter of Luke, Jesus added:
"…I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute: That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation." (Luke 11:47-51 KJV)
That is pretty clear. Jerusalem is responsible for the blood of all the prophets, and at least some of the apostles. There is more in Matthew:
"Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in yoursynagogues, and persecute them from city to city: That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation." (Mat 23:34-36 KJV)
So, Jerusalem was not only responsible for the blood of all the prophets (and some apostles;) but for all the righteous blood shed upon the earth. And vengeance for that blood was required of the generation that Jesus was speaking to.
We all know that is exactly what happened within that generation: the Roman armies completely destroyed Jerusalem and the temple in 70 AD, fulfilling this prophecy by Jesus:
"And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down." (Mat 24:1-2 KJV)
But how do those verses compare to those on Babylon the Great found in the Revelation?
In the Revelation, Babylon the Great is also called the great whore, the mother of harlots, the great city, and the woman. In the context of blood responsibility, John mentions this:
"And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration." (Rev 17:6, KJV)
The first martyr of Jesus was Stephen, if I recall correctly; and there were many more. The next chapter reveals additional facts:
"And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth." (Rev 18:24, KJV)
But, according to Jesus, Jerusalem is supposed to be responsible for the blood of all the prophets; and Jerusalem is responsible for all the righteous blood? Yet, in the following verse we see that God avenged the blood of the apostles and prophets on Babylon the Great.
“Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.” (Rev 18:20, KJV)
And recall the first scripture at the top:
"… it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem" (Luke 13:33.)
So what do we know:
1. Jerusalem killed many of the apostles, yet their blood was avenged on Babylon the Great
2. Jerusalem is responsible for the blood of all the prophets, yet their blood was avenged on Babylon the Great.
3. Jerusalem was responsible for the blood of all the righteous, yet Babylon the Great was responsible for "all that were slain on the earth."
There are many other references in the Revelation that tie Babylon the Great to old Jerusalem. This is one of many:
"And their dead bodies [the two witnesses] shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified." (Rev 11:8 KJV)
It seem our Lord Jesus Christ was killed in both Babylon the Great and Jerusalem. It is difficult to imagine Babylon the Great being any other city than Jerusalem.
Philip
>..It would have really been easy to say “Nero” if it was about Nero. I know... it was written in code that only the church of that time would understand... whatever.<<<
You are right about that. It would have been much easier for us. It would have also been a death wish in the days of Nero to carry around a scroll criticizing Nero. It was equally dangerous, if not more, to criticize the apostate Jewish leadership, or say anything contrary to their traditional interpretations. Thus, the imagery.
As far as interpretation is concerned, that was the purpose of this thread. There are many clues in the Revelation that pointed to Jerusalem and Nero as the two main characters. One of the most compelling are the “blood” arguments. I cannot imagine Babylon the Great being any other city than old Jerusalem, based on the “punishment for the shedding of blood”, alone. Add to that all the historical similarities in the writings of Josephus and Tacitus, and the clear reference to Jerusalem as the death place of the two witnesses, and I believe there is a compelling case to be made.
Philip
Lots of smoke so little clarity.
The generally presented possibilities for Babylon are: (1) Babylon, (2) Jerusalem, and (3) Rome.
I’ve always been drawn to the destruction of Babylon the Great and the ships looking on from afar lamenting the loss of great trade and wealth.
Since none of those were seaports, I was always puzzled.
As far as great wealth and power, that definitely didn’t describe either Jerusalem or Babylon of John’s era. It did fit Rome, of course. All three had in their times been guilty of the blood of prophets, Jerusalem moreso than the others.
But guilty of ALL the blood of the righteous? Hmmmmm. That doesn’t fit any of them.
7 heads are 7 mountains are 7 kings. The only thing that makes sense to me is some kind of system stretching over time with evil development as part of its nature.
If this was all settled in John’s day, I doubt the early Christians would have continued baffled about that great conclusion, but they were. They kept talking about it being future.
So, I tend to look to the future for these things to be fulfilled.
Have you ever posted anything truthful?
.
>> “It is not personal. I go where the scripture leads me” <<
.
Now we know you’re pullin’ our legs!
Do you even own a Bible?
Nothing you have ever posted here in any way touches scripture.
the marriage supper of the lamb has occurred already in revelation 19:7 ,though,if we do things chronologically.
And if the harlot has been judged, and we know that he avenged the blood of his servants at her hand ( revelation 19:2)
Those servants dying today for worshipping him, who gets judged for that since by your timing, scripture in rev. 19 says he has already avenged the blood of his servants at her hand?
I think we can get ourselves in trouble and can be deceived by our enemy if we ‘check things’ off in Revelation, and especially revelation...
Because of God’s grace I am understanding His timekeeping He gave us in the sun, moon and stars that has been counterfeited by Satan (with man’s help )with none other than all the calculated calendars over time- including the Gregorian calendar of today...
When I understood this and started observing His calendar and timekeeping and rejected the Gregorian, I can now see how the whole world, including the church and very elect, has ‘followed after the beast’ .... today..in our world today...
And trying to explain that to people, even believers, is difficult as the Gregorian is all they ever have known and they don’t see it as just the latest tool to steal worship from our Creator.
I re-read revelation in a new light because of His blessings on my studies and the ‘mark of the beast’ versus the ‘seal of God’ was very real to me, in today’s world, not in history past..kind of turned all church doctrines on its ear for me..
For me, as long as I am still here, Revelation is still to be read and good for my teaching, my rebuking, my correcting and my training...
And best part is I have no idea what he will have me ‘unlearn’ tomorrow or the days that follow :)
I believe Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God, but your words I do not trust. I think you misunderstand him.
Also? Also what? I am not catholic?
Yes we have established that; I seem to recall you mentioned you belong to a re-formed religion.
Does your church hold to the Doctrine of Balaam?
I love the Jewish people. I cannot imagine trying to curse the Jews like he and his clients did. I fear God and would not want to fall into judgement like Balaam did. Moslems are looking for alliances with churches to curse Israel. You can even see it in our generation. Iran has even formed an alliance with hundreds of Jews, Neturei Karta, to curse and destroy Israel. The Clarion Project complains that the Presbyterian Church partnered with Islamists and those Islamists want to make the church their “Islamophobia” police. The Presbyterian Church (USA) and its Islamic interfaith partners have also made common cause when it comes to Israel. The Church almost voted in favor of divestment from Israel last summer, winning praise from the director of ISNA’s Office of Interfaith Relations, Sayyid Syeed. He was previously recorded in 2006 saying, “Our job is to change the constitution of America.” Its Israel-Palestine Mission Network endorsed the “No Blank Check for Israel” rally on January 19. It is a member of the Interfaith Boycott Coalition, the faith-based wing of the U.S. Campaign to End the Israeli Occupation. The Interfaith Boycott Coalition supported the boycott of SodaStream because it is based in an Israeli community in the West Bank. The revised study is scheduled to be presented during the 221st General Assembly in 2014. The current version states that Presbyterians are called to “identify and speak out against bigotry, prejudice, discrimination, and violence against Islam and Muslim peoples of all cultures, especially in the United States.”
He sent messengers therefore unto Balaam the son of Beor to Pethor, which is by the river of the land of the children of his people, to call him, saying, Behold, there is a people come out from Egypt: behold, they cover the face of the earth, and they abide over against me: Come now therefore, I pray thee, curse me this people; for they are too mighty for me: peradventure I shall prevail, that we may smite them, and that I may drive them out of the land: for I wot that he whom thou blessest is blessed, and he whom thou cursest is cursed. And the elders of Moab and the elders of Midian departed with the rewards of divination in their hand; and they came unto Balaam, and spake unto him the words of Balak. And he said unto them, Lodge here this night, and I will bring you word again, as the LORD shall speak unto me: and the princes of Moab abode with Balaam.
I don't buy your argument. Sorry. If it was Nero.. they would have said Nero. If it was Jerusalem, they would have said Jerusalem. That was their mode of operation. That is the way the rest of the text reads. Now we're suppose to believe that while in exile on Patmos John lacked the courage to say Nero, or Jerusalem? No way.
Wow did not know this about PUSA. Frightening document.
>>>All three had in their times been guilty of the blood of prophets, Jerusalem moreso than the others. But guilty of ALL the blood of the righteous? Hmmmmm. That doesn’t fit any of them.<<<
Jesus said it did. He said Jerusalem was responsible for the blood of all the prophets:
"… the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation." (Luke 11:50-51 KJV)
I mentioned that, and other "blood judgements" when comparing Jerusalem and Babylon the Great in the original article of this thread.
Philip
Ah the refreshing arrival of sanity.
Ezekiel 23:1-4
1. And the word of the Lord came to me, saying:
2. Son of man, there were two women, the daughters of one mother:
3. And they committed harlotry in Egypt; they committed harlotry in their youth; there were their breasts pressed, and there was her virgin bosom handled:
4. And their names were Aholah the elder, and Aholibah her sister; and they were mine, and they bore sons and daughters; Thus were their names; Samaria is Aholah, and Jerusalem Aholibah:
Aholibah:
אָ הֳ לִ י בָ ה
אהיה ...
Ex 3.13-14
13. And Moses said to God, Behold, when I come to the people of Israel, and shall say to them, The God of your fathers has sent me to you; and they shall say to me, What is his name, what shall I say to them:
14. And God said to Moses, I AM THAT I AM; and he said, Thus shall you say to the people of Israel, I AM has sent me to you:
I AM = אהיה
in Jerusalem, the city which I have chosen me to put my name there.
the daughters of one mother
Rev 17.5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
The feeling is mutual. I don't trust your interpretation, either.
>>>Yes we have established that; I seem to recall you mentioned you belong to a re-formed religion.<<<
Their understanding is closer to mine than any other: but only close. But I avoid man-made rules for interpreting Christianity. God wrote his law in my heart. Men's interpretations can only corrupt it.
>>>I love the Jewish people.<<<
Is that Jewish, as in race; Jewish as Christian Jews; or Jewish as in old testament, antichristian, rabbinical Judaism? I, personally, am a Christian first; and I am less than accommodating to those who blaspheme Christ.
But if you really love them, as you say you do, you will pound Acts 3:22-23 and Acts 17:26 into their thick skulls. They won't listen to me.
Philip
It is not chronological; but the marriage supper has already occurred. The marriage is the Church.
>>>And if the harlot has been judged, and we know that he avenged the blood of his servants at her hand (revelation 19:2) Those servants dying today for worshipping him, who gets judged for that since by your timing, scripture in rev. 19 says he has already avenged the blood of his servants at her hand?<<<
We all get judged for our individual works, whether they be good or whether they be evil. The way I understand it, before the new covenant was established in the first century, Israel was judged as a nation, … sorta.
>>>hink we can get ourselves in trouble and can be deceived by our enemy if we ‘check things’ off in Revelation, and especially revelation...<<<
Why? We are judged by our works; not by how we interpret the Revelation. Well, if we interpret it in a way that gives us an advantage, that would be an evil work for which we will be judged unfavourably; the opposite if we interpret it to help others, and not ourselves. If we try to interpret it for the sake of interpreting it, that doesn't amount to a hill of beans.
>>>Because of God’s grace I am understanding His timekeeping He gave us in the sun, moon and stars that has been counterfeited by Satan (with man’s help )with none other than all the calculated calendars over time- including the Gregorian calendar of today... When I understood this and started observing His calendar and timekeeping and rejected the Gregorian, I can now see how the whole world, including the church and very elect, has ‘followed after the beast’ .... today..in our world today... And trying to explain that to people, even believers, is difficult as the Gregorian is all they ever have known and they don’t see it as just the latest tool to steal worship from our Creator.<<<
I have no idea what that means.
>>>I re-read revelation in a new light because of His blessings on my studies and the ‘mark of the beast’ versus the ‘seal of God’ was very real to me, in today’s world, not in history past..kind of turned all church doctrines on its ear for me..<<<
There is no doubt that many church doctrines leave a lot to be desired; but I still don't know what you are talking about.
>>>For me, as long as I am still here, Revelation is still to be read and good for my teaching, my rebuking, my correcting and my training...<<<
>>>And best part is I have no idea what he will have me ‘unlearn’ tomorrow or the days that follow :)<<<
LOL! Good point.
Philip
>>>the daughters of one mother<<<
I didn’t know that, or even think about it before. Thanks.
Philip
>>>Now we’re suppose to believe that while in exile on Patmos John lacked the courage to say Nero, or Jerusalem? No way.<<<
John wrote what he was told to write (or not write in one case.) That is the way the Holy Ghost does things. The Bible was not written by private interpretation.
Philip
>>>There was no compelling reason for John to call Jerusalem “Babylon The Great”. <<<
It was the Revelation of Jesus Christ, not of John.
>>>Peter had no problem criticizing the the jewish leadership. Book of Acts? The disciples (and Paul) were beaten multiple times for criticizing the jewish leadership.<<<
We are not talking about ordinary, every day people. These people were filled with the Holy Ghost. They were speaking the Word of God.
Recall that Jesus said, “he that receiveth you, receiveth me.” Was there any doubt in Jesus’ mind they would not do what he wanted them to? No. They were his servants: his “instruments” might be more definitive.
Philip
That should be a hint to any rational minded individual. That old “I’m right and the rest of the world is wrong” ey? Well, good luck with that.
Indeed it was and thank you for posting that af_vet_1981. Secessionism leads to some ugly results. I’ve seen the anti Jewish sentiments even in this thread. Evidently the admonition to those who come against Israel means nothing to them.
I wrote: Besides, if I refused to seek information from scholars who only believe the way I believe, I would have zero references from outside the scriptures. LOL! No one believes the way I do: no one I am aware of.<<
Cynical Bear wrote: >>>That should be a hint to any rational minded individual. That old “I’m right and the rest of the world is wrong” ey? Well, good luck with that.<<<
__
Cynical Bear, I cannot imagine how you got that snarky comment out of what I wrote. Read it again.
Never mind. For every rational-minded person, this what I said:
If I only sought out the scholarship of those who are like-minded, I would find none. Therefore, I read and learn from the scholarship of others, even though we don’t agree on everything.
The key point is, I learn from others. However, in no way will I accept anything they say or write that cannot be verified in the scripture.
I recommend everyone adopt that position. Cut-in-stone ideologies are dangerous. That is what got my ancestors in trouble. One misinterpretation led to another until they were so far removed from the reality of the Word they killed anyone who strayed from their doctrine, including the Messiah.
That was not true only of the Jews. Many Christian sects over the centuries have become so high-minded: so convinced of their own superiority and self-righteousness, they either killed or shunned anyone who did not conform, using the heretic label as justification. If you don’t believe there are Christian sects today that would kill “heretics” if they could get away with it, you are living a very sheltered life.
Philip
Hi Phillip
Jesup gave parameters to all those prophets he meant. He named the names
The Revelation happened afterwards and in all those years from the time Jesus spoke more were numbered as prophets.
Agabus, for example, was a biblically acknowledged prophet who was outside the time parameters mentioned by Jesus and not among those named by Him
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