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Cynical posted this verse as part of his pretense that I don't believe the Words of Jesus:

>>>Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.” John 6:28-29<<<

Do you believe on him that sent Jesus, Cynical? Jesus also said this:

"For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:" (John 5:22)

And Jesus, the judge, said, over and over again, we would be judged according to our works. I believe him.

I Wrote: I am a believer, but I am not a saint.

Cynical Wrote: >>>Sorry to hear that. A “believer” you say? So what does that mean? You believe what?<<<

Well, that is part of what I believe. I don't believe anyone should exalt themselves with flattering titles. Nor would I even consider exalting myself to be like those early Christians who receive the POWER of the Holy Ghost and did many wonderful and miraculous things. Those were THE saints, and not any new Christian since the days of Jude.

>>>James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. <<<

>>>Tell me the difference between what the devils believe and what you believe.<<<

The devil does all things contrary to God. For example, the devil is deceitful. He would be the type to bear false witness. I believe men should never be deceitful. Do you know anyone like that?

The devil also tends to exalt himself in his own mind. Humility is not in his play book. A Christian should be humble, always giving glory to God. Post-Apostle Christians should never exalt themselves: in particular, they should never, ever claim to be a saint, or an apostle, or label themselves in any other way beyond being a simple Christian; or, if a minister, then, as a pastor, preacher, etc.. For example, recall the parable of the Pharisee and the publican:

"Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted." (Luke 18:10-14 KJV)

Which category do you fit in, "Saint" Cynical? Tell us the difference between what the devils believe and what you believe?

I Wrote: And I don't recall seeing anywhere in the scriptures that all believers are saints.

Cynical Wrote: >>>Well that doesn’t surprise me. From what I have seen you miss much of what scripture says. Here are a couple more.<<<

>>>Romans 1:7 to all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called saints; Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ!<<<

Paul was writing to all THE saints in Rome. How does that make saints out of all believers? That is quite a stretch!

>>>1 Corinthians 1:2 to the assembly of God that is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called saints, with all those calling upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ in every place -- both theirs and ours:<<<

Paul was writing to two groups at the same time: those called to be Saints; and those who call upon the name of the Lord. I would be in the latter group, unless Jesus had specifically called me to be a Saint; for example by giving me the power over devils; the power to heal the sick; and the ability to speak in and understand all sorts of foreign languages, even though I was a simple fisherman, and the like.

>>>2 Corinthians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ, through the will of God, and Timotheus the brother, to the assembly of God that is in Corinth, with all the saints who are in all Achaia:<<<

Same thing. Paul is writing to the assembly in Corinth, and to all the saints in Achaia. NOTE!!! Paul never says all Christians in Achaia are saints; nor in Corinth. Modern day so-called "saints" have misinterpreted the scriptures to place themselves on a pedestal, which Jesus clearly warned us not to do.

>>>You are by definition a Preterist. Not sure why you keep denying it. Preterism is a Christian eschatological view that interprets prophecies of the Bible as events which have already happened. Daniel is interpreted as events that happened in the second century BC while Revelation is interpreted as events that happened in the first century AD. <<<

By you own definition, "Saint" Cynical, I am not a Preterist. I have never claimed the Revelation was fulfilled in the first century. Doesn't that appear to be deceitful, and not the work of a saint? But the Lord will be the judge on those works: whether they be good, or whether they be evil.

>>>Preterism holds that Ancient Israel finds its continuation or fulfillment in the Christian church at the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. The term preterism comes from the Latin praeter, which is listed in Webster's 1913 dictionary as a prefix denoting that something is "past" or "beyond," signifying that either all or a majority of Bible prophecy was fulfilled by AD 70. Adherents of preterism are commonly known as preterists. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preterism]<<<

"Saint" Cynical, it appears you grabbed that definition out of Wikipedia, not Websters. Did Websters actually use the phrase "signifying that either all or a majority…", or was that added by the user: the author of the Wiki post? I don't know. I don't have the 1913 version.

The modern-day Webster's Dictionary states: "one who believes the prophecies of the Apocalypse to have been already fulfilled."

Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary states: Preterist (Theol) One who believes the prophecies of the Apocalypse to have been already fulfilled.

WordNet 3.6: preterist a theologian who believes that the Scripture prophecies of the Apocalypse (the Book of Revelation) have already been fulfilled

Free Dictionary: Theol.) One who believes the prophecies of the Apocalypse to have been already fulfilled.

Dictionary.Com: preterist: noun: a theologian who believes that the Scripture prophecies of the Apocalypse (the Book of Revelation) have already been fulfilled

AudioEnglish.com Dictionary: Preterist A theologian who believes that the Scripture prophecies of the Apocalypse (as in the Book of Revelations) have already been fulfilled.

You are one of those "concensus" followers, aren't you? Then you should know, by consensus of dictionaries, that I am not a preterist.

I Wrote: By the way, what does this verse mean?

"Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints." (Jude 1:3 KJV)

Cynical Wrote: >>>You don’t believe that the message was “once for all” delivered? How many times do you think it has to be delivered? The Greek doesn’t read “faith which was once delivered” as in at one time. It reads “Once for all having been delivered to the saints”. It was delivered “once for all” as in Christ died “once for all”.<<<

That kind of interpretation can only come by stretching one's imagination far beyond its container. Even "Saint" Cynical's quoted translation from the Greek reads that the early Saints received "all the faith" for all of us. It never mentions what we personally receive any. The verse, itself, only requests that we try to obtain that kind of faith: not that we will ever achieve it.

How many miracles have you performed lately, "Saint" Cynical? The early and TRUE Saints healed the sick, spake in tongues, and did all sorts of miraculous things, including leaving us inspired writings that contained language far beyond their educational levels. Jesus explained faith this way:

"And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you." (Mat 17:20 KJV)

Have you seen anyone move any mountains lately? No. With that established, that no one today has faith even as a grain of mustard seed, we must seriously doubt claims of sainthood by any modern-day Christian.

>>>1 Peter 3:18 because also Christ once for sin did suffer -- righteous for unrighteous -- that he might lead us to God, having been put to death indeed, in the flesh, and having been made alive in the spirit,

>>>Hebrews 9:28 so also the Christ, once having been offered to bear the sins of many, a second time, apart from a sin-offering, shall appear, to those waiting for him -- to salvation!<<<

I am unsure what point you were trying to make with those verses, Cynical. Every Christian knows those verses. What is your point?

I Wrote: It certainly seems that the faith of the saints was a thing of the past when Jude wrote the epistle.

Cynical Wrote: >>>For you it may be a “thing of the past”. For true followers of Christ it “once for all” delivered. All would include “all” regardless of time. Here directly from the Greek. <<<

>>>Jude 1:3 …“once for all having been delivered to the saints faith”…<<<

That also reads like it happened only once, for example, on the Day of Pentecost. That seed of the Holy Ghost that Christ planted in the Saints (the true Saints: the earliest Christians) is explained in the parable of the Mustard Seed:

"… The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field: Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof." (Mat 13:31-32 KJV)

We are those birds that lodge in the branches. We are most definitely not the seed, nor the root.

The translation for the Greek word in that verse for "once" (as in, "once delivered") is:

… one (or a single) time (numerically or conclusively): — once.

It comes from a root word which means

… absolutely all or (singular) every one: — all (things), every (one), whole.

And the Greek for "delivered" means:

… to surrender, i.e. yield up, intrust, transmit.

Therefore, Christ, once, and one time only, intrusted (or, "seeded") the Saints with all faith. Therefore, a proper translation is the one written in the King James Version, which reads:

"…ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints."

And we should earnestly contend for that kind of faith. But we cannot achieve it because we are the birds in the branches, not the seed nor the roots.

Philip