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Why God Did Not Elect Calvinists...
DouglasHamp.com ^ | July 1, 2011 | Douglas Hamp

Posted on 08/27/2011 2:14:11 PM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta

The biblical usage of “election” has absolutely nothing to do with salvation contrary to the teaching of Calvinism. Calvin summarizes this foundational doctrine in his book Institutes of the Christian Religion (Book 3 chapter 21): “Of the eternal election, by which God has predestinated some to salvation, and others to destruction.” He qualifies his summary by stating:

"The predestination by which God adopts some to the hope of life, and adjudges others to eternal death, no man who would be thought pious ventures simply to deny…By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death." (Calvin Institutes 3:21:5: 06 all emphasis in this article is mine)

Calvinist James White reiterates Calvin’s words demonstrating that Calvin meant what he said. White states: “God elects a specific people unto Himself without reference to anything they do. This means the basis of God’s choice of the elect is solely within Himself. His grace, His mercy, His will. It is not man’s actions, works, or even foreseen faith, that “draws” God’s choice. God’s election is unconditional and final.“ (James R. White, The Potter’s Freedom, Amityville, NY: Calvary Press, 2000, p. 39) This is also echoed by Loraine Boettner, in The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination

“The Doctrine of absolute Predestination of course logically holds that some are foreordained to death as truly as others are foreordained to life. The very terms ‘elect’ and ‘election’ imply the terms ‘non-elect’ and ‘reprobation’. When some are chosen out others are left not chosen. The high privileges and glorious destiny of the former are not shared with the latter…Those who hold the doctrine of Election but deny that of Reprobation can lay but little claim to consistency. To affirm the former while denying the latter makes the decree of predestination an illogical and lop-sided decree. The creed which states the former but denies the latter will resemble a wounded eagle attempting to fly with but one wing.” (Loraine Boettner The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination 1932 from 2000 bible study centre™ DIGITAL LIBRARY p. 104-5)

The good news, however, is that “election, elect, chosen” (and the derivatives) are terms that have nothing to do with one’s eternal destiny. Scripture does speak at length of “the elect” and “the chosen” but these terms are devoid of the Calvinistic sense of someone who has been chosen to receive eternal life. The term elect and its derivatives therefore are not salvific in meaning but simply refer to persons or things that are chosen for a particular purpose and the purpose has nothing to do with eternal life. Once the definition of the word is established biblically, the foundation of Calvinism will be undermined and will collapse and arguing the tenants of TULIP will become inapplicable. The word elect (Greek verb: eklegomai ἐκλέγομαι; Hebrew verb: bakharבָּחַר) means to choose, select. The elect or chosen (as nouns or adjectives) are those people or things that have been elected, selected, or chosen for a particular purpose by someone. Scripture bears witness that elect and its derivatives have nothing to do with someone being chosen specifically to eternal life.

The Election of Priests, Kings, and Disciples

In the Old Testament, we see times when God chose and people chose. God chose Levi to minister forever “… the LORD your God has chosen [bakhar בָּחַר Greek LXX eklexetai εκλεξηται] him…” Deut 18:5 (see also 1 Chr 15:2) . God chose Saul to be the first king of Israel. What is fascinating about King Saul is that he was chosen both by God and the people: “…Samuel said to all the people, ‘Do you see him whom the LORD has chosen (Hebrew and Greek are the same roots as above)…’” (1 Sam 10:24) Two chapters later he was chosen by the people: “…here is the king whom you have chosen and whom you have desired. And take note, the LORD has set a king over you.” (1Sam 12:13) Saul’s election by God had nothing to do with eternal life. Saul was chosen, elected by God for the purpose to be king over Israel and with that he had all of the potential to be a good king and for his lineage to be the lineage of the Messiah. "Why then did you not obey the voice of the LORD? … Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, ​and to heed than the fat of rams. For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, ​And stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. ​Because you have rejected the word of the LORD, ​He also has rejected you from being king.” (1 Sam 15:19, 22-23) It is only after repeated disobedience is Saul rejected and David chosen to take his place. Saul’s election by God to be king had nothing to do with eternal life and his removal from being king likewise had nothing to do with eternal life – he was simply removed from his post. Saul is analogous to Judas in many ways because both he and Judas were chosen yet they both forfeited their election. “Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose [eklegomai ἐκλέγομαι] you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” (John 6:70) God elected David to be king and passed over the other seven sons of Jesse. “The LORD said to Samuel, ‘Do not look at his appearance or at his physical stature, because I have refused him’ … Neither has the LORD chosen this one…the LORD has not chosen these.” (1 Sam 16:7-10). The choosing or election had nothing to do with eternal life according to the Calvinist definition: God chose David because of what He saw in the heart and He chose him to be king – not for the purpose of eternal life. See Luke 6:13; John 13:18, 15:16, 19; Acts 1:2, 24, 15:7 concerning Jesus choosing of the disciples, one of whom was a devil (John 6:70).

The Election of Messiah and Angels

God’s election of Messiah further demonstrates that the term election is devoid of the Calvinistic concept of eternal life. Jesus, the Messiah-God-Incarnate, certainly has no need of salvation or eternal life; He is the source of life! “Behold! My Servant whom I uphold, My Elect One [LXX: eklektos εκλεκτος] in whom My soul delights! I have put My Spirit upon Him…" (Isa 42:1, see also Isaiah 49:7) This very title was used of Jesus on the cross “…the rulers with them sneered, saying, ‘He saved others; let Him save Himself if He is the Christ, the chosen of God.’” (Luke 23:35). Peter further confirms God’s election of the Messiah: “Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God and precious” (1 Pet 2:4, see also 1 Pet 2:6). Jesus was unquestionably chosen, elected, predestined by God to be the Messiah but His election was not for His salvation. He was chosen by the Father to give us eternal life! In a similar fashion we find that angels can be elected – demonstrating that “elect” does not mean chosen to eternal life (see also Heb 2:16 regarding the fact that God only offers salvation to mankind): “I charge you before God and the Lord Jesus Christ and the electangels…” (1 Tim 5:21)

The Election of Jerusalem

God also elected (chose) Jerusalem to be His city proving that election has nothing to do with eternal life. “Yet I have chosen Jerusalem, that My name may be there, and I have chosen David to be over My people Israel.” (2 Chr 6:6) “…the city which You have chosen…” (1 Kgs 8:44) “…and for the sake of Jerusalem, the city which I have chosen…” (1 Kgs 11:32), “…the city which I have chosen for Myself, to put My name there.” (1 Kgs 11:36) “For the LORD has chosen Zion; He has desired it for His dwelling place.” (Ps 132:13) In all of these verses we see that God has chosen or elected Jerusalem for a purpose and the word election does not entail eternal life.

The Election of False Gods and Foolish Things

In Corinthians we learn that God has chosen foolish, weak, base and despised things: “But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are,” (1 Cor 1:27-28; see also James 2:5) Not only is election used to describe God’s choosing of people, places, and things for His special purposes, it is used for men’s choosing of the true God and of false gods. “So Joshua said to the people, “You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen the LORD for yourselves, to serve Him…” (Josh 24:22) “Go and cry out to the gods which you have chosen; let them deliver you in your time of distress.” (Judg 10:14) Jesus points out others who chose poorly in the Gospel of Luke: “Jesus noticed how the guests chose the places of honor, He told them a parable. He said to them…when you are invited…do not take the place of honor.” (Luke 14:8) Our conclusion from the above verses is that election has nothing to do with predestination to eternal life. God chose priests, kings and Jerusalem for His purposes and man chose both God and idols. We would be wrong to try to insert the concept of predestination into the term election.

The Election of Israel

While election is made by God and men of people and places, there is a usage that stands out uniquely in Scripture: God’s chosen people, the elect, are the Israelites. The title “chosen/elect” is in no less than eight verses in Scripture. The use of the title “elect” to describe Israel becomes very important when we venture into the New Testament because it clears up many theological, soteriological, and eschatological issues.

Seed of Israel His servant, you children of Jacob, His chosen ones! (1 Chr 16:13)

Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD, The people He has chosen as His own inheritance. (Ps 33:12)

Seed of Abraham His servant, you children of Jacob, His chosen ones! (Ps 105:6)

He brought out His people with joy, His chosen ones with gladness. (Ps 105:43)

For the LORD has chosen Jacob for Himself, ​Israel for His special treasure. (Ps 135:4)

For Jacob My servant’s sake, And Israel My elect. (Isa 45:4)

I will bring forth descendants from Jacob, And from Judah an heir of My mountains; My elect shall inherit it, And My servants shall dwell there. (Isa 65:9)

For as the days of a tree, so shall be the days of My people, And My elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands. (Isa 65:22)

The verses above demonstrate how God has specifically called Israel, Jacob, the Seed of Abraham His chosen. Thus the term “the chosen” or “my chosen” and “the elect” is a reference to ethnic Israel. This point is proven by Paul who, in a synagogue on the Sabbath day in Antioch, read from the Law and Prophets and then spoke to his fellow Jews: “Men of Israel, and you who fear God, listen: ‘The God of this people Israel chose our fathers…’” (Acts 13:16, 17) Thus, the election of Israel was true in the Old Testament and the New Testament as well.

The “Few Chosen” Are Israelites

With the definition of “the elect/chosen” established, we are now ready to proceed to the teachings of Jesus Whom we must remember was Himself Jewish. In Matthew 22 Jesus, speaking with the Pharisees, compares the Kingdom of Heaven to a King who prepared a wedding feast for His Son. Those that were invited to the wedding feast were not interested in coming so the King sent His servants out calling everyone who would come. That the invited guests to the wedding were the Israelites is certain. Jesus Himself confirms this in His rebuke to the Pharisees: “And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 8:11) There are also many passages in the Old Testament that speak of the Messianic age in which the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob would be God’s special people (See for example: Isaiah 2, 4, 11, 60-66). Therefore, Jesus’ statement “For many are called, but few are chosen,” (Matt 22:14; see also Matt 20:16) must be interpreted in light of who are the chosen – that is the Jews! The chosen, elect (the Jews) were the ones to whom the promise of the Messianic Age was first given. However, when the bridegroom came they were not willing to come and therefore God the Father gave instruction for all (the many) to be called to the feast.

Understanding who the elect are unlocks the passage for us. Knowing that the elect are the Jews completely rules out any Calvinistic interpretation of the passage. Note that both the called and chosen still needed salvation as indicated by the wedding garment and he who was found in the feast without a garment was cast out.

The Elect in the Tribulation

We next come to the references to the elect in Matthew 24 in which Jesus is telling the disciples of what the days of the tribulation would be like. Armed with the knowledge that the elect are the Jews, we can consistently interpret the passage; the elect in Matthew 24 are not Gentile believers in the tribulation, but are God’s chosen, that is the Jews. “And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened… For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect." (Matt 24:22, 24) Mark’s Gospel adds “…for the elect’s sake, whom He chose…” (Mark 13:20) emphasizing those whom God chose: the Jews. If the elect are interpreted as those whom God has predestined to eternal life, then a conundrum arises, in particular, for those of us of a pretibulational perspective; who exactly is being gathered at the end of the tribulation? “He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” (Matt 24:31) There can be no question that this gathering happens after the events of the Great Tribulation and yet, if it is referring to the same catching up of believers in 1 Thessalonians 4:17, then the teaching of the pretribulational rapture would be nullified. However, once we realize that the elect here are not believers in general but specifically the Israelites/Jews then the matter is resolved. Two-thirds of the (up to then non-believing) Jews will tragically perish and the one-third (Zech. 13:8) remaining will be gathered at the end of the Great Tribulation. It also fits in with Revelation 19 where the believers return with Jesus to the earth because they have already been caught up to Him. The Old Testament proves that the gathering of the elect in Matthew 24 must be speaking of the Jews. Jesus used the language of Isaiah 11 to describe the gathering of the elect, an obvious reference to the Jews: “He will set up a banner for the nations, and will assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.” (Isa 11:12) The gathering of the Jews is further predicted in Isaiah 43:5, 54:7, and Zechariah 2:6. When we realize that the usage of “chosen” or “elect” has nothing to do with (predestined to) eternal life then many of the difficult Bible passages are easy to interpret.

The Elect in Peter’s Epistles Are Jewish

Peter likewise uses the term elect to describe the Jews. We know so because Peter says as much: “Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ…” (1 Pet 1:1-2) The word “dispersion” (Greek diaspora διασπορά) was used to describe the scattering among the nations that God had promised to the Jews (Israel) if they would not follow Him (Lev 26:33; Deut 4:27; Neh 1:8, etc.; the LXX uses the same Greek word as the NT). James, in his epistle, could not be any clearer that the diaspora is Israel when he says: “To the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad [en te diaspora εν τη διασπορα]: Greetings.” (James 1:1). The twelve tribes are of course Israel (the Jews) and they are in the diaspora – the same group to which Peter was addressing his letter. At the end of his first epistle, Peter further establishes that the elect were none other than Jewish believers, who were also in the diaspora. He writes (in the NKJV) “She who is in Babylon, elect together with [you,] greets you.” (1 Pet 5:13) Now at first glance it appears that Peter might be referring to some woman by the use of the word “she” (aute αὐτή) – which by the way, is absent from the Greek text. The word in the text is the feminine article (he ἡ) which is referencing back to something that was already addressed in the letter. We know that the something in question is also elect and is an adjective modifier to the something because “elect” is feminine singular (suneklekte συνεκλεκτὴ). The question is, however, what is the something that the article and adjective refer to? The answer is to consider to whom the feminine something is sending greetings. That takes us back to the first chapter where Peter established already that he was writing to the pilgrims who were in the diaspora. Diaspora is a singular feminine word and hence it fits the bill perfectly. Certain translations, like the NET Bible for example, have translated the feminine article in 1 Peter 5:13 not as “she” but as “the church”. Their selection at first appears justified since Peter is obviously writing to believers in Jesus and of course, the word (ekklesia ἐκκλησία) is singular feminine. The weakness of the translation, however, is proven by the fact that the word ekklesia does not appear even once in either of Peter’s epistles. The word diaspora does appear and fits both in number and gender. Lastly, we must acknowledge two important points: 1) Peter was the apostle to the Jews. In Galatians 2:7-9 Paul states that he “was entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised just as Peter was to the circumcised” (Gal 2:7). 2) Babylon was the third largest Jewish center in the ancient world. When the Jews were given leave under Cyrus to return to Israel in 536 BC, only a small remnant returned while many thousands stayed in Babylon. The writing of the Babylonian Talmud gives concrete proof to the fact that Babylon was a major center of Jewish life and culture. Since Peter was the apostle specifically appointed to take the Gospel to the Jews, then finding him in Babylon (not Rome!) in the company of Jews is simple enough to grasp. Whether or not Peter ever ventured to Rome as church history would have us believe is therefore in question though it remains outside of the scope of this brief study. Nevertheless, we see that Peter is writing from Babylon, in the company of other Jews (the chosen) to fellow chosen ones who were also in the diaspora (that is, not living in Israel). Realizing that Peter is the apostle to the (elect) Jews and is writing from Babylon to other (elect) Jews facilitates the interpretation of the two epistles. In 1 Peter chapter two Peter writes concerning his Jewish (believing) brethren: “you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. But you are a chosen generation [note: the Greek word is genos (race) not genea (generation) see: NASB], a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him Who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light.” (1 Pet 2:5, 9) These same words were used repeatedly in the Old Testament to describe the Jewish people:

Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be a special treasure to Me above all people; for all the earth is Mine. (Ex 19:5)

‘And you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words which you shall speak to the children of Israel. (Ex 19:6)

“For you are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for Himself, a special treasure above all the peoples on the face of the earth." (Deut 7:6)

“For you are a holy people to the LORD your God, and the LORD has chosen you to be a people for Himself, a special treasure above all the peoples who are on the face of the earth." (Deut 14:2)

"For the LORD has chosen Jacob for Himself, Israel for His special treasure". (Ps 135:4)

He continues speaking to these Jewish pilgrims: “You once were not a people, but now you are God’s people. You were shown no mercy, but now you have received mercy". (1 Pet 2:10) The passage is taken from Hosea 1:9 where God, speaking to Israel, states “Then the LORD said: “Name him ‘Not My People’ (Lo-Ammi), because you are not my people and I am not your God.” (Hosea 1:9) Peter is demonstrating that their previous condition has been undone in Jesus Christ. This truth is given by God through Hosea “However, in the future the number of the people of Israel will be like the sand of the sea which can be neither measured nor numbered. Although it was said to them, “You are not my people,” it will be said to them, “You are children of the living God!” (Hos 1:10, see also Hos 2:23)

Elect but Not Saved

Thus when we read in 2 Peter: “Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble” (2 Pet 1:10) – we know that Peter is talking to Jews and that their election has nothing to do with salvation. Therefore, this is not a Calvinistic call for us to somehow make sure that we have been chosen to eternal life! It is rather a reminder to the chosen people to embrace the fact that they were elected, chosen by God to be His special treasure. However, their election is by no means an absolute guarantee that they will inherit eternal life. Paul corroborates this fact so clearly in 2 Timothy: “Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.” (2 Tim 2:10) Note well that Paul must endure for the elect, the Jews, so that they too might be saved. As we have seen, election has nothing to do with salvation. Furthermore, election is generally a term used of the Jews, who are of course, the chosen people. This is confirmed yet again in Romans 11, where Paul, who is speaking about the Jews, states “Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.” (Rom 11:28)

The Elect in Romans Are Israelites

Part of the challenge of understanding Romans is to recognize that Paul is speaking to the believers in Rome who are both Jewish and Gentile (non-Jewish). We learn that from the way that he addresses his readers: “…the gospel of Christ … is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.” (Romans 1:16) “Jew and Greek” is a combination that he uses throughout the book, see for example Romans 2:9, 10; 10:12. Romans 2:17 Paul speaks specifically to the Jews “Indeed you are called a Jew, and rest on the law, and make your boast in God. (Romans 2:17) Paul then asks what advantage the Jew has (Rom 3:1) and he answers his question with “Much in every way! Chiefly because to them were committed the oracles of God.” (Rom 3:2) In chapter four Paul speaks of Abraham who was their father according to the flesh “…Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh… (Rom 4:1 KJV). Thus, Paul was essentially describing Abraham as: “our genetic (birth) father.” The NET Bible confirms that translation “Abraham, our ancestor according to the flesh” (Rom 4:1 NET) Finally, Paul bridges the apparent polemic between the Jews and Greeks of the Roman church with the following conclusion “For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him.” (Romans 10:12) Having seen that the book of Romans was written in large part to the elect, the Jews, (see also Acts 18:2 and Romans 16:3 concerning Roman Jews) as well as Gentiles, we can now see that the many uses of the word “elect” are not references to salvation, predestination etc. Rather they are reference to the Israelites (elected by God) “to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came…” (Rom 9:4-5) Therefore, Paul’s question “Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect?” (Rom 8:33) is not Calvinistic (predestined to eternal life) but is a reference to the elect Jews (see above: 1 Chr 16:13, Ps 33:12, Ps 105:6, Ps 105:43, Ps 135:4, Isa 45:4, Isa 65:9, Isa 65:22). This concept is consistent throughout the book. Romans 9-11 is the great defense of Scripture, par excellence, that God has not cast away His people. Paul begins the section by showing how God began with Abraham and then chose Isaac over Ishmael, and then Jacob over Esau. Speaking of the two nations in Rebecca’s womb, Paul says: “for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election [ekloge εκλογη] might stand, not of works but of Him who calls.” (Rom 9:11) The election has nothing to do with Calvinistic predestination but with God choosing Jacob rather than Esau to be the one who would receive the oracles of God etc.

Election of Grace

Paul continues in Romans 11 “Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election [ekloge εκλογη] of grace.” (Rom 11:5) This was spoken of the encounter of Elijah and the 400 Israelite prophets of Baal. Just when Elijah thought all was lost, God informed him that He had reserved 7000 that had not followed the evil ways of Baal. And thus in like manner, most of Israel, who had been chosen, elected by God to be the conduit of blessing to the world, had rejected that special calling. This concords with what Jesus stated in Matthew 22:14 that “few [the Jews] are chosen” and that small group had for the most part rejected the special RSVP that God had sent to them to come to the wedding feast. Paul continues “What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect [ekloge εκλογη] have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.” (Rom 11:7) It must be noted that the word elect here is in fact feminine singular– demonstrating that it is not speaking of “the elect ones” (masculine plural eklektoi εκλεκτοι) but “election”. This means that in both Romans 11:5 and 11:7 the term is “election” – thus God’s action of selecting Abraham, Isaac, Jacob to the be the recipients of the promises (Rom 9:4-5). (The Wesley translation properly maintains the nuance of the noun “the election [ekloge εκλογη] hath obtained…” Rom 11:7 Wesley) The entire context of the elect and election has to do with Israel as evidenced by Paul’s following statement of how they, the Jews, “have not stumbled so as to fall… On the contrary, because of their stumbling, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make the Jews jealous.” (Romans 11:11) The biblical “election of grace” is not Calvin’s idea of God choosing some to eternal life and others to eternal damnation; it is rather God choosing the Jewish race, which was based purely on God’s grace and not their righteousness. Moses plainly stated that early in their national history: “It is not because of your righteousness or the uprightness of your heart that you go in to possess their land, but because of the wickedness of these nations that the LORD your God drives them out from before you, and that He may fulfill the word which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.” (Deut 9:5) That the election of grace is referring to God’s choosing of the fathers is further established in chapter eleven: “Now if their stumbling means riches for the world, and if their fall means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean! For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?” (Rom 11:12, 15) Israel, nationally speaking, rejected the invitation to come to the wedding feast when the Bridegroom came which thereby translated into riches for the Gentiles. However, the election of grace, that is God’s making promises to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and their seed, was an irrevocable call which is why Paul says about the unbelieving Jews: “Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.” (Romans 11:28-29) Paul probably had Jeremiah 31:35-37, among other passages, in mind when speaking of the irrevocability of God’s promise. God had called Israel to himself and would never let them go completely. “God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew.” (Rom 11:2) Peter also confirms that God foreknew the Israelites: ​“to the pilgrims of the Dispersion elect according to the foreknowledgeof God the Father” (1 Peter 1:2). God chose Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and their descendants for a special purpose. His choosing them (election) had nothing to do with the Calvinistic idea of predestination to eternal life and eternal damnation. Though the Jews were elect, they were not automatically saved. They for the most part had rejected the invitation to the wedding feast and as such were blinded but they would be restored in the end.

Foreknowledge

Foreknowledge is a companion of election – but just like election, foreknowledge is a general reference to God having known the Israelites beforehand. Consider Paul’s definitive statement: “So I ask, God has not rejected his people, has he? Absolutely not! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew [proginosko προγινώσκω].” (Rom 11:1-2) The word foreknow, like election, has nothing to do with having predestined someone to eternal life or eternal damnation, as Calvin suggested. “Foreknow” and “foreknowledge” are simply a verb and noun of the same basic stem. Look at the following verses that demonstrate that knowing something ahead of time is not only possible for God but for man as well and it does not entail the Calvinistic concept whatsoever: “They knew me from the first [proginosko προγινώσκω], if they were willing to testify…” (Acts 26:5) “You therefore, beloved, since you know [this] beforehand [proginosko προγινώσκω], beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness…” (2 Pet 3:17) In both of the verses, the word is the same – foreknowing and neither is God’s foreknowledge; it is simply man’s. Certainly neither of those two examples carries any sense of Calvinistic predestination. Peter speaks of Jesus being foreknown before the beginning of the world and is just now made known “He was foreknown [proginosko προγινώσκω] before the foundation of the world but was manifested in these last times for your sake“ (1 Pet 1:20 NET) We witnessed before how Peter was addressing the Jews in his epistle whom he states to be elect according to God’s knowing beforehand: “…to the pilgrims of the Dispersion…elect according to the foreknowledge [prognosis πρόγνωσις] of God the Father…” Therefore, when we come to Romans 8 we ought not to jump to the Calvinistic definition, but to the God-foreknew-the-Jews definition. “And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew [proginosko προγινώσκω], He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined these He also called; whom He called…” ​(Rom 8:28-30)​​​​​​​ Even the act of calling we find spoken of concerning Israel in the book of Isaiah: “But now, thus says the LORD, who created you, O Jacob, ​And He who formed you, O Israel: ​Fear not, for I have redeemed you; ​I have called you by your name; ​You are Mine.” (Isa: 43:1; see also: 54:6; 1 Pet 1:15, 2:9, 5:10) Insofar as we Gentiles are grafted into the olive tree, then we share in the common purpose that God has for His elect, the Jews. “You, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree,”(Romans 11:17)

The Remaining Verses of Election

There remain a number of verses that speak of the elect in the New Testament. In light of all that we have studied we can confidently know that they have nothing to do with the Calvinistic idea of predestined to salvation or damnation. Furthermore, in almost all of the cases, understanding them to be a reference to the Jews, God’s chosen people, is warranted. Let’s briefly consider those remaining. When Jesus spoke of God avenging “His own elect who cry out day and night to Him,” (Luke 18:7) He was talking about the Jews. “Rufus, chosen in the Lord,” (Rom 16:13) may be speaking of him being Jewish. This would make the most sense given that of the many other (obviously) believing brothers and sisters in the chapter, only Rufus is called elect. Why would Paul refer to only him as being elect, if the Calvinistic definition of election were true? Were the others not also heirs of eternal life? Understanding that elect/election is not salvation and is generally a reference to the Jews the passage makes complete sense. It must be noted that Priscilla and Aquila, from Rome, were also Jewish and yet were not called elect. Could it be that because Paul had nothing else to say about Rufus that he simply stated that he was chosen/elect in the Lord? Ephesians 1:4 ought to be viewed in light of the chosen people, Israel: “just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love," (Eph 1:4). We know that Paul traveled to Ephesus and there spent three months reasoning with the Jews in the synagogues (Acts 19:1-8). Thus, Ephesians seems to be once again, for “the Jew first and then the Gentile” paradigm. The mention of elect in Colossians is probably also a reference to Jews: “…as the elect of God, holy and beloved…” (Col 3:12) Colossae was in Asia (minor) and we have seen how Peter wrote to those in the dispersion who were in Asia. We also know that Paul first entered the local synagogue wherever he went in order to persuade the Jews first. Thus, his letter to the Colossians, located in Asia is most likely a letter written in the principle of “Jews first and after that the Gentiles.” This is confirmed by looking at the Jews present on the day of Pentecost: “And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven. Then they were all amazed and marveled, saying to one another… how is it that we hear, each in our own language in which we were born? Parthians and Medes and Elamites, those dwelling in Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya adjoining Cyrene, visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabs…” (Acts 2:5, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11) The letter to the Thessalonians is also a letter to the Jews first and then the Gentiles. In Acts 17 we read “they came to Thessalonica, where there was a synagogue of the Jews. Then Paul, as his custom was, went in to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures… and some of them were persuaded and … joined Paul and Silas.”​ (Acts 17:1, 2, 4) With that in mind, we can see why Paul would say “we give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers… knowing, beloved brethren, your election by God." (1 Thes 1:2, 4) Once again, election is not Calvinistic in its definition, but Jewish. Likewise in Titus 1:1 Paul speaks of the faith of God’s elect which very possibly was a reference to the faith of the Jewish people. The Apostle John wrote to “the elect lady and her children…” (2 John 1:1) Though there is debate whether this is addressed to an individual woman and her immediate family or to the larger community is not material for this study. However, the term elect would again point to a reference to someone ethnically Jewish. The salutation also points to someone who is ethnically Jewish. “The children of your elect sister greet you.” (2 John 1:13) We cannot help but think back to Peter’s address to the elect Diaspora and how the elect-together-with-you in Babylon (that is, fellow Jews) greeted them. The final mention of the elect is found in Revelation 17 “These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are called, chosen, and faithful.” (Rev 17:14) We have seen that the elect and chosen do not refer to the Calvinistic concept of election. We have also seen that elect in the New Testament almost always refers to Israelites. When the Lord Jesus comes back his entourage will absolutely include Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and their seed. The question, however, is will Gentiles also be among that group? Given the fact that we Gentiles are grafted into Israel (Rom 11:24) and enjoy blessings that come with that, we can be confident that we will be in that number returning with the Lord.

Conclusion

We thus come to the end of our study having seen that elect and election have nothing to do with salvation, predestined to eternal life or death, nor any Calvinistic definition whatsoever. God elected priests, kings, disciples, Messiah, angels, and Jerusalem – all of which had nothing to do with being predestined to salvation. We also saw that elected/chosen was used of foolish things and of false gods (on man’s part) – again, the term had nothing to do with being predestined to salvation. We then came to the election of Israel and saw that in no less than eight verses in the Old Testament God declared Israel to be His elect! Thus, when we turned to the New Testament we could see that elect/election/chosen never was there as a reference to being predestined to salvation; in fact, nearly every reference of the elect was to Israel. We looked at the elect in the tribulation and saw that it was speaking of the Jews. We looked at the epistles of Peter and found the mention there of elect was to the Jews. We looked at the book of Romans and again, the Jews were the elect. We examined the remaining verses that spoke of election or God’s choosing and found that they more than likely refer to Israel as the elect. Finally, we considered the term foreknowledge/foreknow and found that it is not a salvific term but simply God or even man, knowing something in advance. With all that we have seen we must therefore conclude that elect is not salvation. The definition that Calvin gave “Of the eternal election, by which God has predestinated some to salvation and others to destruction,” is completely lacking in Scripture. Election has nothing to do with salvation or damnation. It is simply God or man making a choice. However, the term “the elect” is more often than not, a reference to Israel/Jews who are of course God’s chosen people. The New Testament references of the elect are never speaking one’s eternal destiny but of God having chosen someone for a particular purpose. In almost all of the New Testament references, the elect are in fact the Jews! It turns out that the New Testament is more Jewish-centered than most of us ever imagined! The epistles of Paul, James, Peter, Hebrews and John are written to the Jew first and then the Gentiles. Personally, I am quite satisfied that God’s plans center around Israel; we Gentile believers have been grafted in which is good enough for me.


TOPICS: Apologetics; General Discusssion
KEYWORDS: bible; calvinism; christianity; dispyhysteria; dropthebong; fundamentalistkook; fundienutcase; kookalert; mouthbreathingkook; protestantism; religiouskook; theology
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To: smvoice
So safely are we kept, how can we possibly be taken away?

And that is the whole point of our salvation. It isn't depended on us. It is a gift given to us and substained for us by God the Father. There is nothing that we did for it nor is there anything that will keep us from the love of Christ.

Joh 6:44-45 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. It is written in the Prophets, 'And they will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me--

181 posted on 08/28/2011 11:07:41 AM PDT by HarleyD
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To: reflecting

Hey...where did you get that from??? ;O)


182 posted on 08/28/2011 11:08:41 AM PDT by HarleyD
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To: irishtenor
However, he did say, “Then the disciples came and said to him, “Why do you speak to them in parables?” And he answered them, “to yu it has been given toi know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, buit to them it has not been given.”

For the same reason that Jesus spoke parables in John chapter 6...

Joh 6:26 Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.

Joh 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him

Although Jesus did not chose who would believe, he knew those who would not believe...

Matthew 13:10-11.Mat 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Mat 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Mat 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Jesus did not pick who would belive but he could see who would be a believer...

Appears as tho Jesus didn't care to have the folks following him around that just wanted some free food, and especially those who would mock him...

183 posted on 08/28/2011 11:24:09 AM PDT by Iscool (You mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailerpark...)
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To: irishtenor
Once again, you must read a little further... John 6:44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.”

Hmmm...The idea of working with machinery drew me to the career I chose, while others were drawn to electronics or science, etc...

184 posted on 08/28/2011 11:39:15 AM PDT by Iscool (You mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailerpark...)
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To: GiovannaNicoletta
The concept of predestination troubles me. I do consider it as graver than any of the other points that separate various churches, because in my opinion it seems to suggest a sadistic god that creates pre-programmed robots, programs some to do evil, some to do good. The robots cannot go against their program, yet at the end of their existence this robot-maker god then puts those he pre-programmed to evil to an eternal torment.

Those of us who go to heck are there for our own fault, it was not God who pre-destined those to go to hell. He KNOWS, but he did not pre-destine them

However, on another note, the title is provocative to Calvinists, somehow suggesting that they will not be going to heaven (which the article does NOT say)

185 posted on 08/28/2011 11:51:05 AM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrzaszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego slynie.)
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To: aruanan; GiovannaNicoletta

bookmark — aruanan’s post 156 is excellently written


186 posted on 08/28/2011 11:56:58 AM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrzaszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego slynie.)
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To: HarleyD
Those verses say what they say and apply to whoever John was writing about.

But the bottom line is that you don't know who the Holy Spirit convicts and who responds with a refusal and you don't know what the Holy Spirit is doing in someone's life.

None of the verses you have posted validate Calvinist belief. You cannot produce one verse that specifically states that God chooses who He will save and who He will not save.

Until those verses are posted, we have to stick with the facts of Scripture where Jesus said that He died for the entire world, that it is not His will that any perish, and that those who are condemned are condemned because they refused to believe.

Those are the Scriptures that we have and none of them even hint that God chooses who He will save and sends everyone else to hell. You have to be able to produce the Scripture to support your belief or the belief has to be questioned.

187 posted on 08/28/2011 12:27:20 PM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta ("....in the last days, mockers will come with their mocking...." (2 Peter 3:3))
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To: Cronos
Predestination troubles you because it goes against all that God is. A God Who creates everyone then sends His Son to die a horrific death for those people He created, then puts in His Bible that that atoning death applies to everyone who will believe and accept that atoning death, but then secretly pre-selects special people to be saved and relegates others to hell with nobody having a choice as to where they will go simply does not fit Who we know God is.

And Calvinist belief cannot be reconciled with the Scriptures that tell us in no uncertain terms that it is the response of the individual to the knowledge of Christ's atoning death and that person's response to the prompting and conviction of the Holy Spirit that decides where that person will spend eternity. If Calvinist belief was true, God would have made that explicitly clear. God has told us what we need to know to get through this life and be assured of our eternal destiny and, since He did say that it is not His will that any perish, He would have left out the Scriptures that tell us that unless a man accepts Christ as Savior, He will not see the kingdom of God and only some people will have that opportunity.

And you're absolutely correct about the responsibility for one's eternal destiny resting on each individual. God knows who will accept Him and reject Him but He does not make the choice for us. If we are condemned, we are condemned because we did not believe.

The title is provocative, but once you read the article, you see that it is about the fact that "chosen" and "elect" have no precedent in Scripture as referring to eternal life. And no, it does not say that Calvinists will not go to Heaven.

188 posted on 08/28/2011 12:48:49 PM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta ("....in the last days, mockers will come with their mocking...." (2 Peter 3:3))
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To: Cronos
I agree! It was excellent!
189 posted on 08/28/2011 12:49:32 PM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta ("....in the last days, mockers will come with their mocking...." (2 Peter 3:3))
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To: irishtenor; GiovannaNicoletta; Cronos
See, here is where a person must look to the whole and not the part. The ASSUMPTION is that Paul is speaking to the Jews. How that assumption is made, I’ll never know. If you were to look just a few, only a few words above Ephesians 1:4, you would find that...GASP... Paul wrote this letter TO BELIEVERS IN EPHESUS, not to Jews. When he says “Just as he chose US”... Paul was talking to CHRISTIANS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ha ha ha ha ha. Come on, tell me that you actually read Ephesians. The purpose of Jesus was to bring the circumcision and the uncircumcision together in one body, his own, and to abolish the enmity between them, making it possible for those who were far off, the Gentiles, to become members of the commonwealth of Israel and partakers of the covenants of promise, to become fellow citizens with the saints and of the household of God. Or, as he said in Romans, they, the Gentiles, were, through faith, unnaturally grafted into the cultivated olive tree, Israel. All believers are the Israel of God, whether Gentile or Jewish. All believers are, through faith, children of Abraham and inheritors of the promises God made to him. There is no distinction made in Christ between Jew and Gentile or even between male and female, certainly not between "Christian" and Jewish. All Jews and, for that matter, all those throughout time all the way back as far as you can go who believe God and are justified by faith are part of the same body, Christ's body, the church. The "church" is not something composed of Gentile Christians as opposed to Jewish believers, nor is it anything distinct from the family of faith promised by God to Abraham.
190 posted on 08/28/2011 1:01:57 PM PDT by aruanan
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To: GiovannaNicoletta
You cannot produce one verse that specifically states that God chooses who He will save and who He will not save.

I have given numerous examples and scriptures of God choosing individuals. Did God choose Moses? Did God choose Samuel while in the womb? Samson? How about David? John the Baptist? Did God choose Paul or did Paul choose God (Gal 1:15)? Heck, the whole BIBLE is about A CHOSEN RACE. What does that mean; the Chosen Race choosing God or God choosing a people? How many more examples would you like? Are you willing to tell me that God did not choose these people but that they made a choice?

As far as "God choosing who...He will not save", that has nothing to do with Calvinism, Reformed theology or anything. God condemned the entire race back with Adam. Frankly, you seem to be ignoring the fact that men are already condemned to hell unless you don't believe in original sin (some don't). Adam made the choice and God gave His judgment a long time ago when Adam was tossed out of the garden. And if we were truly honest with ourselves, Adam was a far better person than we could hope to be. So now we're saying that we could make a better choice than Adam even in our fallen state.

Until those verses are posted, we have to stick with the facts of Scripture where Jesus said that He died for the entire world...

It's a bit condescending to make this claim. I have offer you numerous discussion points which you have not responded to. You are "free" to believe what you wish. But you are believing the Pelegius heresy.

Joh 10:25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me,
Joh 10:26 but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock.
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.

There are people of Christ's flock. There are those who are not. They don't believe BECAUSE they are not part of Christ's flock. Scripture is very clear but you will never understand John 10:25-27 under the Pelegius heresy.

191 posted on 08/28/2011 1:11:27 PM PDT by HarleyD
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To: Cronos; aruanan; GiovannaNicoletta
bookmark — aruanan’s post 156 is excellently written

Except that it is totally false and filled with theological errors.

I didn't learn about the predestination of man from John Calvin. I came to my understanding through Augustine who realized that free will was such an vile error that he was willing to destroy his life's work.

Something to think about.

192 posted on 08/28/2011 1:19:05 PM PDT by HarleyD
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To: HarleyD
I have given numerous examples and scriptures of God choosing individuals. Did God choose Moses? Did God choose Samuel while in the womb? Samson? How about David? John the Baptist? Did God choose Paul or did Paul choose God (Gal 1:15)? Heck, the whole BIBLE is about A CHOSEN RACE. What does that mean; the Chosen Race choosing God or God choosing a people? How many more examples would you like? Are you willing to tell me that God did not choose these people but that they made a choice?

Those people were chosen for service, not salvation. The Jews are the chosen people because they were chosen for service, not salvation. Salvation is offered to them first, but God does not choose from among them who He will save and who He will send to hell. God never uses the word "chosen" in relation to eternal life. Any of the people you listed could have refused to obey God and Paul had the freedom to reject Christ. It was only after they had responded to God's invitation in an obedient manner was God able to use them. God did not force Himself on any of these people. Nowhere in Scripture does God say that He chooses some to be saved and relegates others to hell.

As far as "God choosing who...He will not save", that has nothing to do with Calvinism, Reformed theology or anything. God condemned the entire race back with Adam. Frankly, you seem to be ignoring the fact that men are already condemned to hell unless you don't believe in original sin (some don't). Adam made the choice and God gave His judgment a long time ago when Adam was tossed out of the garden. And if we were truly honest with ourselves, Adam was a far better person than we could hope to be. So now we're saying that we could make a better choice than Adam even in our fallen state.

Yes I do believe in orginial sin and I don't believe that Adam was any better than anyone else because, just like those who reject Christ, he was presented with a choice and chose against God. He was just as fallible as anyone else.

Those who choose God do make a better choice than Adam. Adam made a choice that brought the curse on the earth. I would say that those who, after being told of Christ's atoning death on the cross and choosing to accept that death as payment for their sins, make a much better choice than Adam.

It's a bit condescending to make this claim. I have offer you numerous discussion points which you have not responded to. You are "free" to believe what you wish. But you are believing the Pelegius heresy.

Joh 10:25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me,
Joh 10:26 but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock.
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.

Those verses do not validate Calvinist belief. They speak about those who were told, and chose not to believe. They say nothing remotely resembling that Jesus Christ chose people to save and chose others to go to hell. The verses above are regarding individual choice about accepting or rejecting Christ.

There are people of Christ's flock. There are those who are not. They don't believe BECAUSE they are not part of Christ's flock. Scripture is very clear but you will never understand John 10:25-27 under the Pelegius heresy.

You don't have the slightest clue about what you're talking about. Why don't you put the verses you posted in context? Right before He told the Jews that they don't believe because they were not His sheep, He condemned them because even after He told them Who He was and even after He performed miracles, they still refused to choose to believe Him when He told them Who He said He was.

It was first established that they had made the free choice to reject Him, then He told them that they didn't believe because they were not His sheep. He did not tell them that they didn't have any options; that He was rejecting them and because of that they were not His sheep. The had made that choice, and because of that choice they were not His sheep and therefore were not capable of believing.

Any lost person is at enmity with Jesus Christ and until they choose to accept Him as Savior, they remain incapable of hearing Him and understanding Him, and following Him. But God does not make that choice for them.

193 posted on 08/28/2011 1:41:49 PM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta ("....in the last days, mockers will come with their mocking...." (2 Peter 3:3))
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To: HarleyD; Cronos; GiovannaNicoletta
I didn't learn about the predestination of man from John Calvin. I came to my understanding through Augustine who realized that free will was such an vile error that he was willing to destroy his life's work.

Note: "realized that free will was such a vile error" versus "was willing to destroy his life's work."

Something to think about.

That people can end up making the wrong choices (ha ha ha) and completely screw up their lives?

Except that it is totally false and filled with theological errors.

We've been through this all before. I, at least, have a basis for truth and error. A theological determinist, or any kind of determinist for that matter, has none whatsoever, except when he forgets that he's a determinist (as seen in the Note above).

Luther was a big fan of Augustine, but Calvin was Augustine on crack. Both, however, seemed incapable of making a distinction between their views of God and God himself, Calvin so much so that to question him was to be branded by him a heretic who deserved to die.
194 posted on 08/28/2011 1:42:59 PM PDT by aruanan
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To: HarleyD

Amen, HarleyD. AMEN


195 posted on 08/28/2011 2:50:27 PM PDT by smvoice (The Cross was NOT God's Plan B.)
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To: dartuser; GiovannaNicoletta

Ephesians chapter 1: Could it be that it was *the plan* that all who accept Jesus Christ’s finished work should be holy and without blame before Him in love, that was predestined and foreknown? Not the individuals that were predestined and foreknown?


196 posted on 08/28/2011 3:18:58 PM PDT by smvoice (The Cross was NOT God's Plan B.)
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To: HarleyD; CynicalBear; GiovannaNicoletta; OKSooner; aruanan; smvoice

” Rom 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

Faith is given to us.”

Ummm...that is not what it says. No one can trust a promise they have not heard, so faith DOES require hearing (or some revelation by God to us). But that does NOT say that saving faith is given to us as a gift, and is not a response to God’s initiative.

Mar 16:14 Afterward he appeared to the eleven themselves as they were reclining at table, and he rebuked them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they had not believed those who saw him after he had risen.

Jhn 20:8 Then the other disciple, who had reached the tomb first, also went in, and he saw and believed;

Jhn 20:31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Act 14:1 Now at Iconium they entered together into the Jewish synagogue and spoke in such a way that a great number of both Jews and Greeks believed.

2Ti 3:15 and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

Jhn 6:40 “For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

Act 4:4 But many of those who had heard the word believed, and the number of the men came to about five thousand.

Rom 3:22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction:

Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”

Rom 4:5 And to the one who does not work but trusts him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

Rom 4:24 but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord,

Belief is a response we make (or not) to God’s revelation, and that response is called faith. But it is not compelled, for it is based on something. It doesn’t sneak up and overwhelm us irrationally, but comes as a response to some stimuli: hearing, seeing, reading, etc.


“Certainly if you can “choose” to follow Christ then you can “choose” not to follow Him at some point in future.”

On eternal security, I’m agnostic, as was Arminius. However, when I see passages like the ones below, I’m puzzled how to explain them AND firmly believe in eternal security. If anyone has ideas, please feel free to share.

“4For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.” - Heb 6

“20For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.” - 2 Peter 2

” 26For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 29How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.” - Heb 10

“19Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. 23And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. 24For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.” - Romans 11


Also, on a purely personal note: Got home from church today to find my Border Collie with his nose grossly swollen. Took him to a 24/7 emergency vet place, and he was bitten by a rattlesnake on the nose. He was the 6th dog brought in today for that. While his prognosis is good, he is getting antivenom & morphine for the pain and will remain overnight for observation. If any are willing to offer a prayer for a hopelessly loyal Border Collie, please say a quick one for Jack. Thanks.


197 posted on 08/28/2011 4:52:42 PM PDT by Mr Rogers ("they found themselves made strangers in their own country")
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To: HarleyD

just when you think you are writing and publishing into a meaningless cloud of chatter...you find someone reading and learning from your teaching...be encouraged!


198 posted on 08/28/2011 5:13:22 PM PDT by reflecting
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To: GiovannaNicoletta
Those people were chosen for service, not salvation.

Paul does not agree with you:

Paul specifically states that 1) God set him apart before he was born, 2) called him by his grace, and 3) revealed his Son to him.

Any of the people you listed could have refused to obey God and Paul had the freedom to reject Christ.

The fact is that they did not. God brought them to repentence.

It was only after they had responded to God's invitation in an obedient manner was God able to use them. God did not force Himself on any of these people.

Yes, they responded to God's invitation simply because God opened their eyes to see and ears to hear the truth.

I don't believe that Adam was any better than anyone else because, just like those who reject Christ, he was presented with a choice and chose against God. He was just as fallible as anyone else.

So, are you saying that perfect man made a poor choice? Then how can we do better? And, of course that raises the question are people cast into hell for making poor choices by a loving God? Is that your position?

They speak about those who were told, and chose not to believe.

Please read again:

Where on earth does it say that they "chose not to believe"?

You don't have the slightest clue about what you're talking about. Why don't you put the verses you posted in context?

So I've been told. I will let my statements stand. The whole context of John 10 is about us being the sheep and Christ the shepherd. He talks of His sheep and makes it very clear that not everyone IS His sheep. It doesn't talk about "free will". It doesn't talk about making "choices". You will NEVER be able to provide a step-by-step commentary on John 10.

Any lost person is at enmity with Jesus Christ and until they choose to accept Him as Savior,

That isn't the discussion. The discussion is how Christ reveals Himself to us to make Himself known. Paul was at enmity until our Lord blinded him on the Damascus Road. I would say that got his attention. Yet in Galatians 1:15 Paul states that he was set aside before birth. Please explain.

We can only come to repentance if God grants it:

2Ti 2:25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth,

199 posted on 08/28/2011 5:38:34 PM PDT by HarleyD
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To: Mr Rogers; CynicalBear; GiovannaNicoletta; OKSooner; aruanan; smvoice
But that does NOT say that saving faith is given to us as a gift, and is not a response to God’s initiative.

Romans 10:17 clearly states that saving faith comes from hearing the word of God. You're taking the position that this saving faith does not come from God. Then please explain where it comes from.

200 posted on 08/28/2011 5:43:02 PM PDT by HarleyD
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