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To: GiovannaNicoletta
Those people were chosen for service, not salvation.

Paul does not agree with you:

Paul specifically states that 1) God set him apart before he was born, 2) called him by his grace, and 3) revealed his Son to him.

Any of the people you listed could have refused to obey God and Paul had the freedom to reject Christ.

The fact is that they did not. God brought them to repentence.

It was only after they had responded to God's invitation in an obedient manner was God able to use them. God did not force Himself on any of these people.

Yes, they responded to God's invitation simply because God opened their eyes to see and ears to hear the truth.

I don't believe that Adam was any better than anyone else because, just like those who reject Christ, he was presented with a choice and chose against God. He was just as fallible as anyone else.

So, are you saying that perfect man made a poor choice? Then how can we do better? And, of course that raises the question are people cast into hell for making poor choices by a loving God? Is that your position?

They speak about those who were told, and chose not to believe.

Please read again:

Where on earth does it say that they "chose not to believe"?

You don't have the slightest clue about what you're talking about. Why don't you put the verses you posted in context?

So I've been told. I will let my statements stand. The whole context of John 10 is about us being the sheep and Christ the shepherd. He talks of His sheep and makes it very clear that not everyone IS His sheep. It doesn't talk about "free will". It doesn't talk about making "choices". You will NEVER be able to provide a step-by-step commentary on John 10.

Any lost person is at enmity with Jesus Christ and until they choose to accept Him as Savior,

That isn't the discussion. The discussion is how Christ reveals Himself to us to make Himself known. Paul was at enmity until our Lord blinded him on the Damascus Road. I would say that got his attention. Yet in Galatians 1:15 Paul states that he was set aside before birth. Please explain.

We can only come to repentance if God grants it:

2Ti 2:25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth,

199 posted on 08/28/2011 5:38:34 PM PDT by HarleyD
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To: HarleyD
Gal 1:15-16 But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son to me, in order that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with anyone;

Right. God knew which decision Paul would make before He was born, but He did not force Paul to make the decision to accept Christ and obey Him. Paul was set aside by God for the ministry God had planned for him because God foreknew that Paul would accept Him and obey Him but God did not decide for Paul that Paul would be saved.

Notice that the verse says that Christ was revealed to Paul, not forced on Paul. Jesus chose to make Himself known to Paul in the way that He did because He approaches everyone in the exact way that that person needs to be approached. But He didn't force Paul to accept Him and obey Him and He doesn't force anyone to accept Him. He makes Himself known, and the Holy Spirit convicts, and the individual responds or refuses to respond.

The fact is that they did not. God brought them to repentence.

God convicted them. It was their response to the conviction that enabled God to save them and use them.

Yes, they responded to God's invitation simply because God opened their eyes to see and ears to hear the truth.

He convicted them, they responded to the initial conviction, and then they were given truth. God did not overwhelm them and force them to obey Him. It simply doesn't work that way.

So, are you saying that perfect man made a poor choice?

Yep. God put the tree in the garden for the express purpose of giving Adam and Eve a choice to obey Him and freely follow Him and they chose to disobey Him and bring death upon themselves and the entire human race and because of their choice, we have the conditions in the world and with men that we have now.

Had they made the choice to do what God told them, we wouldn't have the situation we have.

This proves that no man is perfect, and, like God said, there is none righteous.

Then how can we do better?

By choosing to respond to the convicting work of the Holy Spirit and choosing to accept Christ as Savior.

And, of course that raises the question are people cast into hell for making poor choices by a loving God? Is that your position?

That's not "my position", it is what God told us.

Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14“For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it. (Matthew 7:13, 14)

God doesn't force anyone through the narrow gate. They freely choose to go through it themselves.

He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (John 3:18)

Now what reason does God give there for man being condemned? Is it because God chose not to put a particular person on His special, pre-selected list, or is it because the person did not believe in Christ? Who is God putting the responsibility on for being judged?

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." (Matthew 7:21)

Is doing the will of God a choice or does God force people to do His will? Upon whom is God putting the responsibility here of not getting into heaven? If God picks and chooses who to save and who not to save, then why does He put so much responsibility on individuals?

Since God created spiritual beings for the purpose of expressing love, those beings must have complete free will in order to express that love. Of course, free will allows for the possibility of those beings rejecting God and His plans. A God that did not love would not have died to save human beings, the majority of whom will reject Him and spit in His face. God loves us enough to give us the choice of accepting Him or rejecting Him. He grieves for every single person who chooses to condemn themselves and send themselves to hell. But He still gives them the free choice to do so.

Where on earth does it say that they "chose not to believe"?

When Jesus said:

"I told you, and you do not believe.

What exactly does that mean? If you say to someone, "I won a million dollars yesterday" and they "do not believe you", did you force them not to believe you, or did they make the choice not to believe you? If you tell someone something and they don't believe you, did you force that on them? Or did they choose not to believe you?

You will NEVER be able to provide a step-by-step commentary on John 10.

LOL - and you're still trying to twist plain Scripture into something you want it to mean. I'll wait for an explanation of how "you do not believe" actually means that Jesus forced them not to believe what He had told them.

That isn't the discussion. The discussion is how Christ reveals Himself to us to make Himself known. Paul was at enmity until our Lord blinded him on the Damascus Road. I would say that got his attention. Yet in Galatians 1:15 Paul states that he was set aside before birth. Please explain.

Actually, that is the discussion. You're trying to take the responsibility for responding to the convicting of the Holy Spirit away from the individual who is being convicted and put it back on God and make the fact that people reject Christ God's responsibility and it isn't going to fly because there is no Scripture to validate that belief. If you have to ignore, discard, or twist Scripture to attempt to make it fit your belief, then your belief is a false doctrine.

God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth,

Now let's back up a few verses to what you posted is put in context.

Now in a large house there are not only gold and silver vessels, but also vessels of wood and of earthenware, and some to honor and some to dishonor. 21Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from these things, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, useful to the Master, prepared for every good work. (2 Timothy 2: 20, 21)

Here we are again, with God putting the responsibility on people to turn away from dishonorable things, so that they are useful to God.

Then, consistent with God putting the responsibility for "turning away", and "(cleansing) himself", by choosing to do so, we get to 2 Timothy 2:24, and, in keeping with the rest of the Scriptures which tells men they have a choice, and, after being told of the repentance that God offers, God may grant them repentance if they choose to come to Him and seek it.

274 posted on 08/29/2011 4:00:35 PM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta ("....in the last days, mockers will come with their mocking...." (2 Peter 3:3))
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