Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

To: GiovannaNicoletta
You cannot produce one verse that specifically states that God chooses who He will save and who He will not save.

I have given numerous examples and scriptures of God choosing individuals. Did God choose Moses? Did God choose Samuel while in the womb? Samson? How about David? John the Baptist? Did God choose Paul or did Paul choose God (Gal 1:15)? Heck, the whole BIBLE is about A CHOSEN RACE. What does that mean; the Chosen Race choosing God or God choosing a people? How many more examples would you like? Are you willing to tell me that God did not choose these people but that they made a choice?

As far as "God choosing who...He will not save", that has nothing to do with Calvinism, Reformed theology or anything. God condemned the entire race back with Adam. Frankly, you seem to be ignoring the fact that men are already condemned to hell unless you don't believe in original sin (some don't). Adam made the choice and God gave His judgment a long time ago when Adam was tossed out of the garden. And if we were truly honest with ourselves, Adam was a far better person than we could hope to be. So now we're saying that we could make a better choice than Adam even in our fallen state.

Until those verses are posted, we have to stick with the facts of Scripture where Jesus said that He died for the entire world...

It's a bit condescending to make this claim. I have offer you numerous discussion points which you have not responded to. You are "free" to believe what you wish. But you are believing the Pelegius heresy.

Joh 10:25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me,
Joh 10:26 but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock.
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.

There are people of Christ's flock. There are those who are not. They don't believe BECAUSE they are not part of Christ's flock. Scripture is very clear but you will never understand John 10:25-27 under the Pelegius heresy.

191 posted on 08/28/2011 1:11:27 PM PDT by HarleyD
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 187 | View Replies ]


To: HarleyD
I have given numerous examples and scriptures of God choosing individuals. Did God choose Moses? Did God choose Samuel while in the womb? Samson? How about David? John the Baptist? Did God choose Paul or did Paul choose God (Gal 1:15)? Heck, the whole BIBLE is about A CHOSEN RACE. What does that mean; the Chosen Race choosing God or God choosing a people? How many more examples would you like? Are you willing to tell me that God did not choose these people but that they made a choice?

Those people were chosen for service, not salvation. The Jews are the chosen people because they were chosen for service, not salvation. Salvation is offered to them first, but God does not choose from among them who He will save and who He will send to hell. God never uses the word "chosen" in relation to eternal life. Any of the people you listed could have refused to obey God and Paul had the freedom to reject Christ. It was only after they had responded to God's invitation in an obedient manner was God able to use them. God did not force Himself on any of these people. Nowhere in Scripture does God say that He chooses some to be saved and relegates others to hell.

As far as "God choosing who...He will not save", that has nothing to do with Calvinism, Reformed theology or anything. God condemned the entire race back with Adam. Frankly, you seem to be ignoring the fact that men are already condemned to hell unless you don't believe in original sin (some don't). Adam made the choice and God gave His judgment a long time ago when Adam was tossed out of the garden. And if we were truly honest with ourselves, Adam was a far better person than we could hope to be. So now we're saying that we could make a better choice than Adam even in our fallen state.

Yes I do believe in orginial sin and I don't believe that Adam was any better than anyone else because, just like those who reject Christ, he was presented with a choice and chose against God. He was just as fallible as anyone else.

Those who choose God do make a better choice than Adam. Adam made a choice that brought the curse on the earth. I would say that those who, after being told of Christ's atoning death on the cross and choosing to accept that death as payment for their sins, make a much better choice than Adam.

It's a bit condescending to make this claim. I have offer you numerous discussion points which you have not responded to. You are "free" to believe what you wish. But you are believing the Pelegius heresy.

Joh 10:25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me,
Joh 10:26 but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock.
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.

Those verses do not validate Calvinist belief. They speak about those who were told, and chose not to believe. They say nothing remotely resembling that Jesus Christ chose people to save and chose others to go to hell. The verses above are regarding individual choice about accepting or rejecting Christ.

There are people of Christ's flock. There are those who are not. They don't believe BECAUSE they are not part of Christ's flock. Scripture is very clear but you will never understand John 10:25-27 under the Pelegius heresy.

You don't have the slightest clue about what you're talking about. Why don't you put the verses you posted in context? Right before He told the Jews that they don't believe because they were not His sheep, He condemned them because even after He told them Who He was and even after He performed miracles, they still refused to choose to believe Him when He told them Who He said He was.

It was first established that they had made the free choice to reject Him, then He told them that they didn't believe because they were not His sheep. He did not tell them that they didn't have any options; that He was rejecting them and because of that they were not His sheep. The had made that choice, and because of that choice they were not His sheep and therefore were not capable of believing.

Any lost person is at enmity with Jesus Christ and until they choose to accept Him as Savior, they remain incapable of hearing Him and understanding Him, and following Him. But God does not make that choice for them.

193 posted on 08/28/2011 1:41:49 PM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta ("....in the last days, mockers will come with their mocking...." (2 Peter 3:3))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 191 | View Replies ]

To: HarleyD
There are people of Christ's flock. There are those who are not. They don't believe BECAUSE they are not part of Christ's flock.

You have the "BECAUSE" right. Jesus explicitly states this fact in various places.

"Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father."

"He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God.

Those who have have the cause and effect reversed want Jesus to say,
"You are not of God because you do not hear me".
But that's not what Jesus says. He says exactly that which you contend He is saying: "BECAUSE you are not of God, THEREFORE you cannot hear me."

Cordially,

210 posted on 08/28/2011 6:33:19 PM PDT by Diamond (He has erected a multitude of new offices, and sent hither swarms of officers to harass our people,)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 191 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson