Why God Did Not Elect Calvinists...

DouglasHamp.com ^ | July 1, 2011 | Douglas Hamp

[HarleyD]

So safely are we kept, how can we possibly be taken away?

And that is the whole point of our salvation. It isn't depended on us. It is a gift given to us and substained for us by God the Father. There is nothing that we did for it nor is there anything that will keep us from the love of Christ.

Joh 6:44-45 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. It is written in the Prophets, 'And they will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me--

[HarleyD]

Hey...where did you get that from??? ;O)

[Iscool]

However, he did say, “Then the disciples came and said to him, “Why do you speak to them in parables?” And he answered them, “to yu it has been given toi know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, buit to them it has not been given.”

For the same reason that Jesus spoke parables in John chapter 6...

Joh 6:26 Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.

Joh 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him

Although Jesus did not chose who would believe, he knew those who would not believe...

Matthew 13:10-11.Mat 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Mat 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Mat 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Jesus did not pick who would belive but he could see who would be a believer...

Appears as tho Jesus didn't care to have the folks following him around that just wanted some free food, and especially those who would mock him...

[Iscool]

Once again, you must read a little further... John 6:44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.”

Hmmm...The idea of working with machinery drew me to the career I chose, while others were drawn to electronics or science, etc...

[Cronos]

The concept of predestination troubles me. I do consider it as graver than any of the other points that separate various churches, because in my opinion it seems to suggest a sadistic god that creates pre-programmed robots, programs some to do evil, some to do good. The robots cannot go against their program, yet at the end of their existence this robot-maker god then puts those he pre-programmed to evil to an eternal torment.

Those of us who go to heck are there for our own fault, it was not God who pre-destined those to go to hell. He KNOWS, but he did not pre-destine them

However, on another note, the title is provocative to Calvinists, somehow suggesting that they will not be going to heaven (which the article does NOT say)

[Cronos]

bookmark — aruanan’s post 156 is excellently written

[GiovannaNicoletta]

Those verses say what they say and apply to whoever John was writing about.

But the bottom line is that you don't know who the Holy Spirit convicts and who responds with a refusal and you don't know what the Holy Spirit is doing in someone's life.

None of the verses you have posted validate Calvinist belief. You cannot produce one verse that specifically states that God chooses who He will save and who He will not save.

Until those verses are posted, we have to stick with the facts of Scripture where Jesus said that He died for the entire world, that it is not His will that any perish, and that those who are condemned are condemned because they refused to believe.

Those are the Scriptures that we have and none of them even hint that God chooses who He will save and sends everyone else to hell. You have to be able to produce the Scripture to support your belief or the belief has to be questioned.

[GiovannaNicoletta]

Predestination troubles you because it goes against all that God is. A God Who creates everyone then sends His Son to die a horrific death for those people He created, then puts in His Bible that that atoning death applies to everyone who will believe and accept that atoning death, but then secretly pre-selects special people to be saved and relegates others to hell with nobody having a choice as to where they will go simply does not fit Who we know God is.

And Calvinist belief cannot be reconciled with the Scriptures that tell us in no uncertain terms that it is the response of the individual to the knowledge of Christ's atoning death and that person's response to the prompting and conviction of the Holy Spirit that decides where that person will spend eternity. If Calvinist belief was true, God would have made that explicitly clear. God has told us what we need to know to get through this life and be assured of our eternal destiny and, since He did say that it is not His will that any perish, He would have left out the Scriptures that tell us that unless a man accepts Christ as Savior, He will not see the kingdom of God and only some people will have that opportunity.

And you're absolutely correct about the responsibility for one's eternal destiny resting on each individual. God knows who will accept Him and reject Him but He does not make the choice for us. If we are condemned, we are condemned because we did not believe.

The title is provocative, but once you read the article, you see that it is about the fact that "chosen" and "elect" have no precedent in Scripture as referring to eternal life. And no, it does not say that Calvinists will not go to Heaven.

[GiovannaNicoletta]

I agree! It was excellent!

[aruanan]

See, here is where a person must look to the whole and not the part. The ASSUMPTION is that Paul is speaking to the Jews. How that assumption is made, I’ll never know. If you were to look just a few, only a few words above Ephesians 1:4, you would find that...GASP... Paul wrote this letter TO BELIEVERS IN EPHESUS, not to Jews. When he says “Just as he chose US”... Paul was talking to CHRISTIANS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ha ha ha ha ha. Come on, tell me that you actually read Ephesians. The purpose of Jesus was to bring the circumcision and the uncircumcision together in one body, his own, and to abolish the enmity between them, making it possible for those who were far off, the Gentiles, to become members of the commonwealth of Israel and partakers of the covenants of promise, to become fellow citizens with the saints and of the household of God. Or, as he said in Romans, they, the Gentiles, were, through faith, unnaturally grafted into the cultivated olive tree, Israel. All believers are the Israel of God, whether Gentile or Jewish. All believers are, through faith, children of Abraham and inheritors of the promises God made to him. There is no distinction made in Christ between Jew and Gentile or even between male and female, certainly not between "Christian" and Jewish. All Jews and, for that matter, all those throughout time all the way back as far as you can go who believe God and are justified by faith are part of the same body, Christ's body, the church. The "church" is not something composed of Gentile Christians as opposed to Jewish believers, nor is it anything distinct from the family of faith promised by God to Abraham.

[HarleyD]

You cannot produce one verse that specifically states that God chooses who He will save and who He will not save.

I have given numerous examples and scriptures of God choosing individuals. Did God choose Moses? Did God choose Samuel while in the womb? Samson? How about David? John the Baptist? Did God choose Paul or did Paul choose God (Gal 1:15)? Heck, the whole BIBLE is about A CHOSEN RACE. What does that mean; the Chosen Race choosing God or God choosing a people? How many more examples would you like? Are you willing to tell me that God did not choose these people but that they made a choice?

As far as "God choosing who...He will not save", that has nothing to do with Calvinism, Reformed theology or anything. God condemned the entire race back with Adam. Frankly, you seem to be ignoring the fact that men are already condemned to hell unless you don't believe in original sin (some don't). Adam made the choice and God gave His judgment a long time ago when Adam was tossed out of the garden. And if we were truly honest with ourselves, Adam was a far better person than we could hope to be. So now we're saying that we could make a better choice than Adam even in our fallen state.

Until those verses are posted, we have to stick with the facts of Scripture where Jesus said that He died for the entire world...

It's a bit condescending to make this claim. I have offer you numerous discussion points which you have not responded to. You are "free" to believe what you wish. But you are believing the Pelegius heresy.

Joh 10:25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me,
Joh 10:26 but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock.
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.

There are people of Christ's flock. There are those who are not. They don't believe BECAUSE they are not part of Christ's flock. Scripture is very clear but you will never understand John 10:25-27 under the Pelegius heresy.

[HarleyD]

bookmark — aruanan’s post 156 is excellently written

Except that it is totally false and filled with theological errors.

I didn't learn about the predestination of man from John Calvin. I came to my understanding through Augustine who realized that free will was such an vile error that he was willing to destroy his life's work.

Something to think about.

[GiovannaNicoletta]

I have given numerous examples and scriptures of God choosing individuals. Did God choose Moses? Did God choose Samuel while in the womb? Samson? How about David? John the Baptist? Did God choose Paul or did Paul choose God (Gal 1:15)? Heck, the whole BIBLE is about A CHOSEN RACE. What does that mean; the Chosen Race choosing God or God choosing a people? How many more examples would you like? Are you willing to tell me that God did not choose these people but that they made a choice?

Those people were chosen for service, not salvation. The Jews are the chosen people because they were chosen for service, not salvation. Salvation is offered to them first, but God does not choose from among them who He will save and who He will send to hell. God never uses the word "chosen" in relation to eternal life. Any of the people you listed could have refused to obey God and Paul had the freedom to reject Christ. It was only after they had responded to God's invitation in an obedient manner was God able to use them. God did not force Himself on any of these people. Nowhere in Scripture does God say that He chooses some to be saved and relegates others to hell.

As far as "God choosing who...He will not save", that has nothing to do with Calvinism, Reformed theology or anything. God condemned the entire race back with Adam. Frankly, you seem to be ignoring the fact that men are already condemned to hell unless you don't believe in original sin (some don't). Adam made the choice and God gave His judgment a long time ago when Adam was tossed out of the garden. And if we were truly honest with ourselves, Adam was a far better person than we could hope to be. So now we're saying that we could make a better choice than Adam even in our fallen state.

Yes I do believe in orginial sin and I don't believe that Adam was any better than anyone else because, just like those who reject Christ, he was presented with a choice and chose against God. He was just as fallible as anyone else.

Those who choose God do make a better choice than Adam. Adam made a choice that brought the curse on the earth. I would say that those who, after being told of Christ's atoning death on the cross and choosing to accept that death as payment for their sins, make a much better choice than Adam.

It's a bit condescending to make this claim. I have offer you numerous discussion points which you have not responded to. You are "free" to believe what you wish. But you are believing the Pelegius heresy.

Joh 10:25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me,
Joh 10:26 but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock.
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.

Those verses do not validate Calvinist belief. They speak about those who were told, and chose not to believe. They say nothing remotely resembling that Jesus Christ chose people to save and chose others to go to hell. The verses above are regarding individual choice about accepting or rejecting Christ.

There are people of Christ's flock. There are those who are not. They don't believe BECAUSE they are not part of Christ's flock. Scripture is very clear but you will never understand John 10:25-27 under the Pelegius heresy.

You don't have the slightest clue about what you're talking about. Why don't you put the verses you posted in context? Right before He told the Jews that they don't believe because they were not His sheep, He condemned them because even after He told them Who He was and even after He performed miracles, they still refused to choose to believe Him when He told them Who He said He was.

It was first established that they had made the free choice to reject Him, then He told them that they didn't believe because they were not His sheep. He did not tell them that they didn't have any options; that He was rejecting them and because of that they were not His sheep. The had made that choice, and because of that choice they were not His sheep and therefore were not capable of believing.

Any lost person is at enmity with Jesus Christ and until they choose to accept Him as Savior, they remain incapable of hearing Him and understanding Him, and following Him. But God does not make that choice for them.

[aruanan]

I didn't learn about the predestination of man from John Calvin. I came to my understanding through Augustine who realized that free will was such an vile error that he was willing to destroy his life's work.

Note: "realized that free will was such a vile error" versus "was willing to destroy his life's work."

Something to think about.

That people can end up making the wrong choices (ha ha ha) and completely screw up their lives?

Except that it is totally false and filled with theological errors.

We've been through this all before. I, at least, have a basis for truth and error. A theological determinist, or any kind of determinist for that matter, has none whatsoever, except when he forgets that he's a determinist (as seen in the Note above).

Luther was a big fan of Augustine, but Calvin was Augustine on crack. Both, however, seemed incapable of making a distinction between their views of God and God himself, Calvin so much so that to question him was to be branded by him a heretic who deserved to die.

[smvoice]

Amen, HarleyD. AMEN

[smvoice]

Ephesians chapter 1: Could it be that it was *the plan* that all who accept Jesus Christ’s finished work should be holy and without blame before Him in love, that was predestined and foreknown? Not the individuals that were predestined and foreknown?

[Mr Rogers]

” Rom 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

Faith is given to us.”

Ummm...that is not what it says. No one can trust a promise they have not heard, so faith DOES require hearing (or some revelation by God to us). But that does NOT say that saving faith is given to us as a gift, and is not a response to God’s initiative.

Mar 16:14 Afterward he appeared to the eleven themselves as they were reclining at table, and he rebuked them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they had not believed those who saw him after he had risen.

Jhn 20:8 Then the other disciple, who had reached the tomb first, also went in, and he saw and believed;

Jhn 20:31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Act 14:1 Now at Iconium they entered together into the Jewish synagogue and spoke in such a way that a great number of both Jews and Greeks believed.

2Ti 3:15 and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

Jhn 6:40 “For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

Act 4:4 But many of those who had heard the word believed, and the number of the men came to about five thousand.

Rom 3:22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction:

Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”

Rom 4:5 And to the one who does not work but trusts him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

Rom 4:24 but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord,

Belief is a response we make (or not) to God’s revelation, and that response is called faith. But it is not compelled, for it is based on something. It doesn’t sneak up and overwhelm us irrationally, but comes as a response to some stimuli: hearing, seeing, reading, etc.

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“Certainly if you can “choose” to follow Christ then you can “choose” not to follow Him at some point in future.”

On eternal security, I’m agnostic, as was Arminius. However, when I see passages like the ones below, I’m puzzled how to explain them AND firmly believe in eternal security. If anyone has ideas, please feel free to share.

“4For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.” - Heb 6

“20For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.” - 2 Peter 2

” 26For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 29How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.” - Heb 10

“19Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. 23And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. 24For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.” - Romans 11

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Also, on a purely personal note: Got home from church today to find my Border Collie with his nose grossly swollen. Took him to a 24/7 emergency vet place, and he was bitten by a rattlesnake on the nose. He was the 6th dog brought in today for that. While his prognosis is good, he is getting antivenom & morphine for the pain and will remain overnight for observation. If any are willing to offer a prayer for a hopelessly loyal Border Collie, please say a quick one for Jack. Thanks.

[reflecting]

just when you think you are writing and publishing into a meaningless cloud of chatter...you find someone reading and learning from your teaching...be encouraged!

[HarleyD]

Those people were chosen for service, not salvation.

Paul does not agree with you:

Gal 1:15-16 But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son to me, in order that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with anyone;

Paul specifically states that 1) God set him apart before he was born, 2) called him by his grace, and 3) revealed his Son to him.

Any of the people you listed could have refused to obey God and Paul had the freedom to reject Christ.

The fact is that they did not. God brought them to repentence.

It was only after they had responded to God's invitation in an obedient manner was God able to use them. God did not force Himself on any of these people.

Yes, they responded to God's invitation simply because God opened their eyes to see and ears to hear the truth.

I don't believe that Adam was any better than anyone else because, just like those who reject Christ, he was presented with a choice and chose against God. He was just as fallible as anyone else.

So, are you saying that perfect man made a poor choice? Then how can we do better? And, of course that raises the question are people cast into hell for making poor choices by a loving God? Is that your position?

They speak about those who were told, and chose not to believe.

Please read again:

Joh 10:25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me,
Joh 10:26 but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock.
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.

Where on earth does it say that they "chose not to believe"?

You don't have the slightest clue about what you're talking about. Why don't you put the verses you posted in context?

So I've been told. I will let my statements stand. The whole context of John 10 is about us being the sheep and Christ the shepherd. He talks of His sheep and makes it very clear that not everyone IS His sheep. It doesn't talk about "free will". It doesn't talk about making "choices". You will NEVER be able to provide a step-by-step commentary on John 10.

Any lost person is at enmity with Jesus Christ and until they choose to accept Him as Savior,

That isn't the discussion. The discussion is how Christ reveals Himself to us to make Himself known. Paul was at enmity until our Lord blinded him on the Damascus Road. I would say that got his attention. Yet in Galatians 1:15 Paul states that he was set aside before birth. Please explain.

We can only come to repentance if God grants it:

2Ti 2:25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth,

[HarleyD]

But that does NOT say that saving faith is given to us as a gift, and is not a response to God’s initiative.

Romans 10:17 clearly states that saving faith comes from hearing the word of God. You're taking the position that this saving faith does not come from God. Then please explain where it comes from.