Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
Does anybody else smell burned hash file or something? I’m getting told there’s a post #1459 but the display stops at #1453. Plus my last attempted reply came up with no addressee.
One of the servers is still catching up on the indexing after the crash. This too shall pass.
If you're not when he asks you, than you're right, it's not worship, rather its a typical sign of delusional psychosis.
In English it's not been since the 1600s that the phrase "I pray thee" was used to ask for something. The issue is not respect for great saints, or the humility to ask others to pray for you--something I do routinely to my brothers who are alive. Do you?
But you and I, like the homeless man, cannot ask someone something if they are not there, and cannot hear us.
God alone is omniscient; neither Mary, nor any of the other saints in Heaven are--and I challenge you to show me where in holy Scripture citizenship in heaven for humans implies gaining God's omniscience or omnipresence.
There is no difference between humbly begging your brother who is alive on earth to pray for you than there is humbly begging St. Peter, St. Paul, St. Andrew, St. Therese, or St. Bernadette, all of whom are alive in Heaven, to pray for you.
Ummm, just WHY is that, just because you assert it? Please prove to me that the saints in heaven can hear us, just like the saints we speak to on earth can.
And please notice I have not given one word of insult to you in return to the insulting manner you addressed me.
Catholics are not burdened by the man-made error sola scriptura.
...citizenship in heaven for humans implies gaining God's omniscience or omnipresence.
Unnecessary.
Perhaps allegorically but not metaphorically.
I'll see your nonsense and raise you:
INTRODUCTION OF SAINT LOUIS MARIE
1. It was through the Blessed Virgin Mary that Jesus came into the world, and it is also through her that he must reign in the world.
It's hard to respond to nonsense except with more nonsense.
You are not on my ping list.
You capitalized Israel and Paul. Do you bow to Israel or Paul?
If you're not THERE when he asks you, than you're right, it's not worship, rather its a typical sign of delusional psychosis.
In English it's not been since the 1600s that the phrase "I pray thee" was used to simply ask for something apart from supernatural prayer and worship. The issue is not respect for great saints, or the humility to ask others to pray for you--something I do routinely to my brothers who are alive. Do you?
But you and I, like the homeless man, cannot ask someone something if they are not present, and cannot hear us.
God alone is omniscient; neither Mary, nor any of the other saints in Heaven are--and I challenge you to show me where in holy Scripture citizenship in heaven for humans implies gaining God's omniscience or omnipresence.
There is no difference between humbly begging your brother who is alive on earth to pray for you than there is humbly begging St. Peter, St. Paul, St. Andrew, St. Therese, or St. Bernadette, all of whom are alive in Heaven, to pray for you.
Ummm, just WHY is that, just because you assert it? Please prove to me from the words of the Apostles that the saints in heaven can hear us, just like the saints we speak to on earth can.
I and my fellow magisterial Protestants actually venerate and respect the greatest Saints of all--the original Apostles--MORE than any Roman Catholic, in that we obey their words recorded in holy Scripture, even when they do conflict with the traditions of men, invented long after them.
And please notice I have not given one word of personal insult to you in return to the insulting manner you addressed me.
LOL!
Catholics are not burdened by the man-made error sola scriptura.
...citizenship in heaven for humans implies gaining God's omniscience or omnipresence.
Unnecessary.
That’s terribly embarrassing. LOL
Evidently Free Republic gives an exemption from charity.
I say again: knowing more and being in more places is not the same as knowing all and being in all places. It is not necessary for Mary and the other saints to be omniscient or omnipresent. It's still pretty remarkable, but we don't necessarily have to defend against omniscience and omnipresence,
However, if the saints are with God, and God is everywhere, what follows?
The word "pray" is still used in legal speech. And I don't think it's the request part that troubles us. I think the objection is hard to state. We need some word that doesn't sound all culty but means something like spiritual communication.
In general we would suggest that parts of the body are sort of aware of one another. If we are one in the Spirit, then the Spirit which provides our oneness can handle the communication thing.
And in any event talking about God or the saints being in some place is awkward, isn't it? Isn't is as awkward as talking about them being in some time? Where and when is God? What's it like to be with Him?
It is admittedly hard (as in impossible?) to show that the Bible says we CAN communicate with the saints, but isn't our relationship with the members of the one body is different from the relationship Saul, The Witch of Endor, and Samuel had? I'd venture a yeah-huh to that. So I don't think the case against is conclusive.
I have to admit that I am ignorant of other religions and thought they were just like Robertson, Warren, Graham, who I enjoy listening to. Lately I've come across these Rev. Wright type hate-filled "Christians" and it's almost like they have a different God. Where are they coming from? Which denominations are they. Most Christians I have known are kind and positive, have I been too sheltered?
No, you have not been too sheltered. There is a vocal minority of anti-Catholic bigots, but it is a tiny minority among protestants. It's just that they labor under the yoke of a kind of mental defect, an obsessive anti-Catholic fetishism.
They should be pitied and remembered in our prayers.
P.S.: Know them by their fruits.
Why would the "Catholic Church" have been founded by Torah-observant Jews
on the YHvH commanded Feast of Shavuot
where the Law being given to Moses is celebrated ?
They believed Jesus was Christ. Thus they were Christians. They founded Christ's Church according to His command and instruction.
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