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I see. So when a homeless guy asks me for change, he's worshiping me?

If you're not when he asks you, than you're right, it's not worship, rather its a typical sign of delusional psychosis.

In English it's not been since the 1600s that the phrase "I pray thee" was used to ask for something. The issue is not respect for great saints, or the humility to ask others to pray for you--something I do routinely to my brothers who are alive. Do you?

But you and I, like the homeless man, cannot ask someone something if they are not there, and cannot hear us.

God alone is omniscient; neither Mary, nor any of the other saints in Heaven are--and I challenge you to show me where in holy Scripture citizenship in heaven for humans implies gaining God's omniscience or omnipresence.

There is no difference between humbly begging your brother who is alive on earth to pray for you than there is humbly begging St. Peter, St. Paul, St. Andrew, St. Therese, or St. Bernadette, all of whom are alive in Heaven, to pray for you.

Ummm, just WHY is that, just because you assert it? Please prove to me that the saints in heaven can hear us, just like the saints we speak to on earth can.

And please notice I have not given one word of insult to you in return to the insulting manner you addressed me.

And please notice I have not given one word of insult to you in return to the insulting manner you addressed me.

Evidently Free Republic gives an exemption from charity.

I say again: knowing more and being in more places is not the same as knowing all and being in all places. It is not necessary for Mary and the other saints to be omniscient or omnipresent. It's still pretty remarkable, but we don't necessarily have to defend against omniscience and omnipresence,

However, if the saints are with God, and God is everywhere, what follows?

The word "pray" is still used in legal speech. And I don't think it's the request part that troubles us. I think the objection is hard to state. We need some word that doesn't sound all culty but means something like spiritual communication.

In general we would suggest that parts of the body are sort of aware of one another. If we are one in the Spirit, then the Spirit which provides our oneness can handle the communication thing.

And in any event talking about God or the saints being in some place is awkward, isn't it? Isn't is as awkward as talking about them being in some time? Where and when is God? What's it like to be with Him?

It is admittedly hard (as in impossible?) to show that the Bible says we CAN communicate with the saints, but isn't our relationship with the members of the one body is different from the relationship Saul, The Witch of Endor, and Samuel had? I'd venture a yeah-huh to that. So I don't think the case against is conclusive.

But you and I, like the homeless man, cannot ask someone something if they are not there, and cannot hear us.

That is the opinion of a few hundred years of Protestant scholarship. This opinion rejects the 1,600-odd years of Christian thought and belief, both Catholic and Orthodox, which existed prior to it.

Please prove to me that the saints in heaven can hear us, just like the saints we speak to on earth can.

There's plenty of proof in the way of the thousands of substantiated miracles happening in the aftermath of praying for saintly intercession. But your circular logic precludes you from believing in such miracles (i.e., since the saints can't hear us, these couldn't have been miracles).

Christ taught that you will know the true preachers of His doctrine by their fruits. As the Catholic Church is by far the largest and most universal Church on Earth, I'd say that God has blessed us pretty abundantly. Why would He bless us to such a degree if we've been angering Him by praying to His saints for all these years?

Ummm, just WHY is that, just because you assert it? Please prove to me that the saints in heaven can hear us, just like the saints we speak to on earth can.

And please notice I have not given one word of insult to you in return to the insulting manner you addressed me

Are you daft?

Here in Florida, there are only two reasons for speaking to a man the way you have written to MD: what we call "being low-bred," or looking for a fight.

You have some nerve protesting innocence after the "just because you assert it" comment.

Sado-evangelist do nothing BUT make up fatuous rules supporting their personal interpretation of Scripture.

Honestly, the "how can Mary be omniscient" line is as stupid and vacuous as the "Can God make a rock...etc." question.

God alone is omniscient; neither Mary, nor any of the other saints in Heaven are—and I challenge you to show me where in holy Scripture citizenship in heaven for humans implies gaining God’s omniscience or omnipresence.

= =

INDEED.

As to insults . . . they seem to be part of the RC rituals for a significant chunk of the RC’s. Kind of goes with the mentality of construing RELIGIOUS REALITY such that they are convinced that only they have the truly truest true TRUTH.