The Worship of Mary? (An Observation)

[Ultra Sonic 007]

Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.

There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.

Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).

Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.

Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.

I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.

But do I WORSHIP them?

No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.

I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.

There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?

I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.

Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.

In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.

At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.

[Ultra Sonic 007]

Thoughts?

[RexBeach]

You’ve heard of saying a “Hail Mary”? I’ve said them every morning for years. Nothing wrong with it.

It’s OK to ask the Blessed Mother to intervene on our behalf.

It’s also OK to ask a saint to intervene on our behalf.

And it’s certainly OK to ask Christ, through prayer to help us.

Catholicism has a lot of places to go for help. :)

[taxcontrol]

Look up the word “worship” and then tell me if praying to Mary constitutes worship. I believe it does. I also believe that there is only one God and per Jesus teachings, is the only God /person hood we should be praying to.

Because I believe that praying to any other person than God, violates Jesus teaching, I can not accept the Catholic teachings.

[LiteKeeper]

Nowhere in scripture are we told to request someone to intervene for us after death. Asking for Mary to intervene with her Son for us is not found...we are given bold access to the very throne of God in our own prayers. Mary has no more influence with Jesus than we do. The Rosary and adoration of Mary are unnecessary...and perhaps a demonstration of lack of faith.

[paterfamilias]

I think you are pretty much correct.

Catholics worship God alone.

It appears that the distinction that we make, prayer as an entreaty being different from worship, is the sticking point with some non-Catholic Christians who equate prayer with worship.

As for Mary being dead, for Catholics, she and all saints are not only still living, but are basking in the beatific vision of God.

Thus, we do not pray to “dead people” because we are certain that they have eternal life in God.

(I believe I have stated the Catholic case correctly; more knowledgable Catholics, please correct me if I am wrong.)

[mockingbyrd]

Right on the money.

[psjones]

I’m getting a headache :-).

I’m Catholic, my husband is Protestant, discussing religious differences is not my cup of tea, unless we’re discussing obama’s so called “church”.

[Antoninus]

Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.

"There can be no doubt that the Virgin Mary is in heaven. How it happened we do not know. And since the Holy Spirit has told us nothing about it, we can make of it no article of faith . . . It is enough to know that she lives in Christ. The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart." (Martin Luther, Sermon, September 1, 1522).

"[She is the] highest woman and the noblest gem in Christianity after Christ . . . She is nobility, wisdom, and holiness personified. We can never honor her enough. Still honor and praise must be given to her in such a way as to injure neither Christ nor the Scriptures. (Martin Luther, Sermon, Christmas, 1531)."

"It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary's soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God's gifts, receiving a pure soul infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin." (Martin Luther, Sermon: "On the Day of the Conception of the Mother of God," 1527).

In short, even Martin Luther would have condemned the so-called Protestants who attack those who show reverence to the Mother of God.

[Constitutions Grandchild]

Eggz-actly.

[paterfamilias]

“Nowhere in scripture are we told to request someone to intervene for us after death. Asking for Mary to intervene with her Son for us is not found...we are given bold access to the very throne of God in our own prayers. Mary has no more influence with Jesus than we do.”

It is my understanding that the precedent for Mary’s power to intercede with Jesus is clearly stated in John 2:1-11

John
Chapter 2

1
On the third day there was a wedding in Cana in Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there.
2
Jesus and his disciples were also invited to the wedding.
3
When the wine ran short, the mother of Jesus said to him, “They have no wine.”
4
(And) Jesus said to her, “Woman, how does your concern affect me? My hour has not yet come.”
5
His mother said to the servers, “Do whatever he tells you.”
6
Now there were six stone water jars there for Jewish ceremonial washings, each holding twenty to thirty gallons.
7
Jesus told them, “Fill the jars with water.” So they filled them to the brim.
8
Then he told them, “Draw some out now and take it to the headwaiter.” So they took it.
9
And when the headwaiter tasted the water that had become wine, without knowing where it came from (although the servers who had drawn the water knew), the headwaiter called the bridegroom
10
and said to him, “Everyone serves good wine first, and then when people have drunk freely, an inferior one; but you have kept the good wine until now.”
11
Jesus did this as the beginning of his signs in Cana in Galilee and so revealed his glory, and his disciples began to believe in him.

[ChurtleDawg]

I, as a Catholic, do not think co-redeemer is a correct or wise title for the Blessed Virgin. I know what you may mean by it, but it can be misunderstood very easily.

As such, I always use the traditional titles of Blessed Virgin and Theotokos (God-bearer, or Mother of God) when describing Mary

About the communion and intercession of saints-—I see nothing wrong with asking St. Peter, St. Francis of Assisi or St. Padre Pio to pray for you. Saints, the members of the Body of Christ, never die, so asking them to join your prayers in Heaven is not divining the dead. They are your friends and allies, your brothers and sisters in Christ.

[Catholic Canadian]

I answer to Jesus and Jesus alone. I revere Mary for being the mother of Christ. What’s so hard to understand? I also have great respect for my fellow Christians who are Protestant, Evangelical, Presbyterian etc.

[trisham]

Ave Maria
Hail Mary, full of grace,
the Lord is with Thee.
Blessed art Thou among women
And Blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus.

Holy Mary, Mother of God
Pray for us sinners now
and at the hour of our death.
Amen

Yes. It’s difficult to understand where some see “worship” in the above.

[patriotUSA]

To whom did Jesus pray to? Mary? No, not once. He prayed only to The Father.

When the apostles asked Jesus how to pray, what did Jesus say? He said "When you pray, say Father, ..."

[Antoninus]

At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.

Your thoughts are pretty much on the money. All great saints, including the Blessed Mother, lead to Jesus. As John the Baptist said, "I must decrease so that He may increase." When a seemingly holy person aggrandizes him/herself instead of Christ, its a sure sign that they are not who they claim to be.

One of the most famous ancient icons of Eastern Christianity is the Hodegetria--she who shows the way. It was claimed that the original was painted by St. Luke himself. Here's an image of it:



The important aspect of this icon is that Mary gestures to her Son. She leads the believer to Christ. Mary herself would not wish to be "worshiped". If a pious Christian made that mistake, she would direct that person to Jesus and say, "Do whatever he tells you." (ie, the Marriage Feast of Cana).

When we pray to her, we ask for her to interceed on our behalf with her Son, Jesus. I have always found it odd that Protestants would ask other living men to pray for them, but neglect to ask those who are alive in Heaven to do likewise. There's just something deeply wrong there.

[LiteKeeper]

Wrong - this has absolutely nothing to do with what is going on today. Citing this passage is bad exegesis, and unwarranted. You can’t compare asking an earthly Mary to go to her Son with asking a soul in heaven to interceded with her resurrected Son.

[Ultra Sonic 007]

I, as a Catholic, do not think co-redeemer is a correct or wise title for the Blessed Virgin. I know what you may mean by it, but it can be misunderstood very easily.

That's just a title I've seen used on here by a Protestant FReeper.

[FourtySeven]

We “worship” Mary the same way the men in Rev 3:9 were forced to “worship” other men by Christ.

IOW, we “worship” Her not as we would worship God, but we do show her respect, just as those men did in Rev 3:9. (and also, as St. John “worshipped” the angel in Rev 22:8)

Thus, it’s not only inaccurate to claim (as some do) that we put Mary on the same par as God, but it’s also entirely SCRIPTURAL to do what we do.

[ChurtleDawg]

I have a similar icon of The Theotokos and The Christ in my living room.

I absolutely love the art of the Eastern Christians. Nothing in the west can compare.

One icon that everyone should look at is the icon of Jesus Christ Pantocrator, because the Face of Jesus, in that icon, is almost identical to the face on the Shroud of Turin.

http://www.shroudofturin4journalists.com/pantocrator.htm