8mm
Posted on 09/24/2007 3:11:29 PM PDT by presidio9
A new article by an Italian medical professor speculates the death of Pope John Paul the Second was caused by euthanasia. According to "TIME" magazine, an intensive care specialist says the Pope's death would be considered euthanasia by standards set by the Catholic Church. The doctor bases her conclusion on press reports and a book written by the Pope's physician. She says the decision not to insert a feeding tube until just a few days before his death accelerated the death of the ailing pontiff. Plus, the doctor believes the Pope himself made the decision not to insert the tube after consulting with medical professionals. He had been hospitalized twice before his 2005 death. Catholics are told to take any effort to prolong life. The article appears in an Italian magazine critical of the church's stance on medical ethics. The doctor says she decided to revisit the Pope's death after a recent ruling by the Catholic Church on euthanasia.
I think you and your siblings respected your mother’s wishes and thus absolutely did the right thing. It’s not selfish to want to spend more years with your mom, but it would have been selfish to force her to do it!
God bless you and yours! GG
My mother also had a living will that specifically said no feeding tube. And she was adamantly opposed to suicide. She would not consider a DNR as a vehicle of suicide.
When God wants you back, he’ll come get you.
Speculation by someone that wasn’t there..
One day every tear will be wiped away.
Pax
How much more bible-based can you be than being Catholic? The original bible-based Church.
That was the quote from nmh. She suggested that somehow, God decided it was the Pope's time to die, and that choosing to use a feeding tube somehow interferes with God's will.
To be clear, the pope's death wasn't contributed or sped up by lack of a feeding tube; he didn't starve to death.
The flaw in NMH's reasoning is that when you decide to abandon someone to "God's Will" you wind up making a lot of unecessary martyrs. Like Terri Shaivo.
Is using an AED interfering with "God's Will?" Is administering O2 via a non-rebreather interfering with "God's Will?"
It's assinine for people to try and divine "God's Will" to suit getting rid of people who are inconvinent or to avoid having to make the harder choice. It's tiring to hear people use the "God's Will" excuse to get out of pretty much anything when the real answer is "I don't feel like it."
Though I'm sure NMH has appreciated you sticking up for him/her since apparently NMH has gotten called out for something else said on this thread as, well, bigoted.
The niece of a very good friend of mine was murdered many years ago in Mobile. At her funeral, her mother got up and told the kids who were there that they would probably hear someone say that it was God's Will that Katherine had died. Joanne said that she did not believe that. She believe her daughter was dead because of the murderer's will, which was against the Will of God.
The Pope was dying, there was nothing that was going to change that, if left to the natural cycle of life. The only thing that would have kept him alive would have been artificial means, and the Church has never taught that they are required to be employed for someone near death.
Your example is on point. People throw around the God's Will all the time.
Why did you quit your job? (God's Will)
Why did you end your marraige? (God's Will)
Why don't you get off your ass and make something of your life? (I'm waiting for God to tell me what to do)
Why did you break up with me? (God doesn't want me to marry you)
It's all a bunch of hooey. Ala Almighty Bruce, you know, BE the miracle.
8mm
That was the quote from nmh. She suggested that somehow, God decided it was the Pope’s time to die, and that choosing to use a feeding tube somehow interferes with God’s will.”
I stated that my Grandmother, who was 100 didn’t wish anyone to go through heroic efforts to save her with double lung pneumonia. The doctors informed us that she wouldn’t survive without it. Not only did she SURVIVE but she THRIVED. She completely recovered and a about four months later her heart simply gave out. So, with or without a feeding tube, God calls the shots. Not man.
“The flaw in NMH’s reasoning is that when you decide to abandon someone to “God’s Will” you wind up making a lot of unecessary martyrs. Like Terri Shaivo.”
The flaw with you is that you don’t believe GOD is in control. God allowed Terri to die. God ALLOWED the courts to rule as they did. Man doesn’t determine this - GOD DOES! Terri was murdered. God allowed this - perhaps to show how evil we have become.
“Though I’m sure NMH has appreciated you sticking up for him/her since apparently NMH has gotten called out for something else said on this thread as, well, bigoted.”
I hadn’t been paying attention to YOU or this thread since my last response. I simply happened upon it. I have a REAL life and cyber life isn’t my priority nor do I wish to waste time on people like yourself. People like you, who have nothing to offer, ALWAYS have to resort to mindless name calling “bigoted” since truth is unacceptable to you.
Frankly, I know some very nice Catholics. We don’t agree on beliefs since Catholicism is not Bible based, however they have my respect. As for you, I feel sorry for you ... like the Pharisees ... you show “religion” on the outside but inside you are spiritually dead as well as a terrible example.
BTW, some of us don’t fear death.
We have everything to look forward to. It is ALWAYS HIS will that will prevail - feeding tubes, chemcicals ... it doesn’t matter how people try to avoid death ... He will decide when it’s time.
That may be your opinion, but we are VERY 'Bible based'. After all, we're the ones who put it all together in writing for the first time. It didn't spring up, fully formed, during the Reformation.
Just because we have some traditions that are not specified in Scripture, doesn't mean we don't have the Word of God as the basis for all we do.
I don’t mean to be disrespectful - especially since I’m a newbie - but can you tell me how this can be true? That it is always God’s will when a person is to die?
Modern medicine can prop you up for YEARS, and then pull your plug, at the whim of some litigator. And you will have no control over it, because your mind will not be working properly after they load you with drugs.
Or you can take that inner decision yourself, it’s time to go, as JPII did.
There is a big difference between an opinion and a fact.
It is a FACT that Catholicism is not Bible based.
Neither is Mormonism. Neither is Jehovah Witnesses ... it’s just one of many perverted Christian beliefs.
The hate for Catholicism that wells in your soul must be under high pressure...it's constantly gushing out all over.
Discuss the issues all you want, but do NOT make it personal!
You’re not disrespectful like some folks here ... . Our ways and thoughts aren’t His ways, so sometimes it’s hard to understand and accept outcomes.
Isa.55:8
[8] For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
Another way to look at it from a secular point of view would be, say you’re a CEO at some HUGE corporation. You will have more information and knowledge than the assembly line worker. The CEO will have the BIGGER picture and hopefully make the right decisions even if we don’t agree with them. In the situation of God, HE has the bigger picture and PERFECT knowledge. His decisions are ALWAYS right even if we don’t understand them. He is in control at ALL times - even thought we’d LIKE to believe, we are in control.
A nice testimony that highlights this:
http://www.testimonyshare.com/gods-always-in-control/
Perhaps another way of explaining this:
http://solochristo.com/theology/Salvation/pog/sogp4.htm
http://solochristo.com/theology/Salvation/pog/sogp1.htm
It is God, not modern medicine or any of our WORKS that will prevent GOD from taking home His own or nonbelievers. WE’ve been conditioned to believe that WE know as much as God in saving lives - we don’t! It’s honorable to save peoples lives but WE don’t make the call on that.
Some people who have cancer, use chemicals to fight it - some win the fight and go into remission and some lose their lives - who calls the outcome is GOD! Not the doctors. Not the drug companies.
“Modern medicine can prop you up for YEARS, and then pull your plug, at the whim of some litigator. And you will have no control over it, because your mind will not be working properly after they load you with drugs.”
Again, people want to believe they are in control ... they aren’t. I forget who it was ... Karen Quinlin ... who lived for years on a machine ... they “pulled the plug” expecting her to die and she DIDN’T - at least NOT when they, the medical folks thought she would.
Well, this Catholic family demanded that the court “pull the plug”. They did. She didn’t die. She lived for another 10 years!
“... Not only was the case groundbreaking legally, it was remarkable for its rare appeal to religious principles. Because she and her family were Catholics, several principles of Catholic moral theology were critical in deciding the case and thus influencing a development in American law, an influence replicated around the world. The case is credited also with the development of the modern field of bioethics. Although Quinlan was removed from active life support in 1976, she lived on in a coma for almost a decade until her death from pneumonia in 1985.”
She died of pneumonia, 10 years later!
This was God’s will. He controlled this, Not the doctors, the courts or the parents! God calls the shots.
“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karen_Ann_Quinlan
“Or you can take that inner decision yourself, it’s time to go, as JPII did.”
I truly can’t speak for JP11. I don’t know him. I don’t read his stuff and it really doesn’t matter. What matters is what God says and teaches us on how to best live our lives.
What I do know is all this puffed up self righteousness is silly - since NO mere mortal is better than another and at the foot of the cross we are all EQUAL in sin - even JP11.
To: nmh
I’m not Catholic...
You’re kidding! Really!?!
12 posted on 09/24/2007 3:44:01 PM PDT by Petronski (Congratulations Tribe! AL Central Champs)
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I had NO reply to Petronski. I typically IGNORE him since he is NOT tolerant of others that are NOT Catholic. In the past he’d send me NASTY, unwanted e-mails. I started posting them in the open, on FR, to show what kind of person he was and he finally stopped - perhaps shame kicked in ... .
In any event, perhaps he needs to NOT STIR the POT and learn some tolerance and self control.
I have every Biblical reason to NOT be a Catholic and to state such anywhere. Name calling and being obnoxious only makes a person look small and UNChristian - especially when it is unprovoked as it ALWAYS is with Petronski.
Those people, though you may not like the idea, were Catholics, whose liturgy is based on Jesus's Last Supper with his disciples. The prayers from our Mass come from the prayers of the Seder, which is what Jesus and his disciples were celebrating on that night, and we believe that Jesus instituted the Holy Eucharist that night, again, based on HIS Words in the Gospels.
You may not like the idea of the hierarchy of the Church, and may reject the notion that Jesus designated leaders among his apostles, and that Apostolic succession is how we look at the Papacy and College of Cardinals, but that idea of succession is right there in the Gospel, as well.
Again, YOU may not agree, but don't confuse your strongly held opinion with facts.
It is a FACT that Catholicism is not Bible based.
is NOT a fact. It is your demonstrably misinformed opinion.
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