DNA and the Dead Sea Scrolls how do the pieces fit!

BYU TV ^ | 1998 | Scott Woodward

[restornu]

Click Video- Learn how DNA was able to sort out and match the DDS fragments

[restornu]

According to what the OT records say Moses only saw Jehovah.

If that's what you believe, and you believe that God (the Father) and Jehovah are 2 completely different people, why would you say that Moses saw God Father in an effort to prove that Joseph Smith saw God the Father?

Don't worry. You are certainly not the first Mormon to pull that. ;-)

I would like to say using that ending of you phrase was to provoke or assign motive.

It was uncalled for and accusatory!

That was not what I said!

I said in the OT Moses spoke to Jehovah (Jesus). and than I pointed out in the NT and JSH that Heavenly Father introduce his only begotten Son.

My point was the pattern was not consistent in the OT as in the NT where Heavenly Father remains silent unless he is introducing his Son!

I must say and you are not alone in being unplasant but you emanate an attitude of animosity towards the LDS you do not treat this as a discussion, you treat the LDS with contempt

It is very puzzling...

[sevenbak]

Great response, and quite right, I have written on a human level. To me there is just too much going on to point to a ritual burial of errant writings. There are nearly 1000 manuscripts, every single book in the Old Testament, excluding the book of Esther. There are also many many books of the Apocrypha and the like. There is the temple scroll as well as the treasure scroll written on copper sheeting, showing the many locations of hidden temple treasures. To me it sounds like protection for the future, not mistakes of the past. But that’s my opinion. I don’t think there are many coincidences, I believe the Lord has all things in his hands for a reason.

Cheers.

[sevenbak]

The controversial points I was referring to are things like "God was once a man" and "men can become gods". Do you personally reject such ideas?

I don't... but then I think I'm in good company, both in the recent past as well as early Chruch fathers....

C. S. Lewis, considered by many as the twentieth century's foremost proponent of "orthodox" Christianity and quoted elsewhere by the authors, claimed, "There are no ordinary people. We live in a society of possible gods and goddesses" (Weight of Glory, William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company [Grand Rapids, Michigan], pp. 1P15)...

The idea was also quite prevalent in Joseph Smith's day:

Feuerbach said, "God is merely the image of what man can be."

Whitman stated, "Divine I am, inside and out."

Andrew Jackson also said, "Man can become more and more endowed with divinity."

William Ellory Channing insisted on man's "likeness to God,"

Emerson wrote almost the same.

_________________________________________________________________________

Similar ideas were expressed much earlier:

Meister Eckhart of the fourteenth century said, "The seed of God is within us."

Thomas Aquinas, probably the most important theologian in Roman Catholicism, said, "God became man, that man might become God."

St. Augustine said the same thing, exactly.

And Maximus five hundred years earlier said, "He became what we are in order that we might be what He is,"

Compare this to LDS teachings which sounds a lot like "As man now is, God once was, and as God now is man may become."

In the fourth century one of the Fathers, Gregory of Nazianus, taught, "I may become God to the same extent as He became man."

Basil of Caesarea taught, "The Holy Spirit aids man in being made like God and the highest of all, being made God."

Athanasius in the fourth century, who was foremost in defending the Nicean version of the Trinity, also said God assumed humanity that we might become God.

Earlier, some church leaders, not yet molded into the Trinitarian concept, said similar things:

Origen said, "Flee with all in your power from being man and make haste to become gods."

Origen's teacher. Clement of Alexandria, said, "The soul [which is kept pure], receiving the Lord's power, studies to become a god."

(All these quotations were excerpted from Philip Barlow, a doctoral candidate in American religious history at Harvard, "Unorthodox Orthodoxy: The Idea of Deification in Christian History,")

Further, I see the same truths taught in the bible:

Gen. 3: 22 (Moses 4: 28) man is become as one of us.
Ps. 82: 6 ye are gods, and all of you are children of the most High.
Matt. 5: 48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father.
John 10: 34 (Ps. 82: 1-8) Is it not written in your law . . . Ye are gods.
Acts 17: 29 we are the offspring of God.
Rom. 8: 17 heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ.
2 Cor. 3: 18 changed into the same image from glory to glory.
Gal. 4: 7 if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
Eph. 4: 13 Till we all come . . . unto a perfect man.
1 Jn. 3: 2 when he shall appear, we shall be like him.
Rev. 3: 21 him that overcometh will . . . sit with me in my throne.

[Reno232]

Perhaps you would like to answer my post 309 re: the trinity. Perhaps you can reconcile your belief in one God w/ the scriptures in John that I cite in post 309.

Let me add one more of a myriad I could add: John 5:22 “For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son”.

If they’re one God, why would the Father commit all judgment to the Son? Why not just say, I the Lord Judge. Period!

I appreciate your fervor & respect your beliefs but your indignant tone does you a disservice when faced w/ viable alternatives to you beliefs. Alternatives that many would see as very clear in the bible.

[sevenbak]

If you read all those quotes again, it becomes clear what God means by being one. Clearly the BOM teaches this, even in the passages you say you do agree with.

[Reno232]

What a great quote! Thanks for posting it. Makes a lot of sense.

[sevenbak]

THAT WAS THE WHOLE POINT of my post

Actually, all you posted were quotes that the Father is a personage of spirit, and frankly I agree with that. So is the son, all things are spirit, all matter is spirit, if God wasn't spirit, he couldn't touch our spirits. Why you are leaving out is our belief that He is ALSO a personage of flesh and bone. The two are not automatically exclusive. We believe God is a spirit, and we also believe he has a glorified physical body.

[sevenbak]

Elsie, the reasoning is there. Since every account from Joseph Smith prior to the Times and Seasons article say Moroni and not Nephi, it will be very hard for you to come up with a foundational document to prove your theory.

Good luck with that, I wish you well.

[sevenbak]

LOL. So now you are equating the words of Satan to the words of Enoch.

sigh...

Let’s go back to the topic of this thread shall we?

Did you know that of all the documents found in the dead sea scrolls, the third largest collection is the Book of Enoch, 25 separate manuscripts, the only other 2 with larger numbers were Psalms and Deuteronomy.

Here’s a breakdown of the top 16:

Books and # found
Psalms 39
Deuteronomy 33
1 Enoch 25
Genesis 24
Isaiah 22
Jubilees 21
Exodus 18
Leviticus 17
Numbers 11
Minor Prophets 10
Daniel 8
Jeremiah 6
Ezekiel 6
Job 6
1 & 2 Samuel 4

Now considering how the ancient scholars respected the words of Enoch, and considering how Jude, the brother of Jesus thought his prophecies of the last days were worthy of inclusion, then perhaps you can see that you just might be on the wrong side of this matter?

Or, perhaps, like some of the 4th century compilers of the Bible, you may also be of the mind that the Book for Jude should not be included in the bible, because he quoted Enoch.

[sevenbak]

Sounds like a prequel to the DaVinci Code!

Actually, you are close. Dan Browns next book, "Solomon's key" is supposedly based on masonic history, and the roots of the same going back to Enoch and Adam, or so I've heard. What I do know is that Brown asked and received permission from the LDS church to spend 2 weeks in their archives researching for his novel. It is sure to be a good read, regardless of his conclusions.

[sevenbak]

Where is this ‘promise’ found?

Well, considering how and why we have the biblical records we do, it’s because God has always commanded his children to write their histories, it makes perfect sense that his other tribes would also do the same over the last few millenia of time. Why would it be any different.

BTW, We have this “promise” recorded in the Book of Mormon:

2 Nephi 29:

10 Wherefore, because that ye have a Bible ye need not suppose that it contains all my words; neither need ye suppose that I have not caused more to be written.
11 For I command all men, both in the east and in the west, and in the north, and in the south, and in the islands of the sea, that they shall write the words which I speak unto them; for out of the books which shall be written I will judge the world, every man according to their works, according to that which is written.
12 For behold, I shall speak unto the Jews and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto the Nephites and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto the other tribes of the house of Israel, which I have led away, and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto all nations of the earth and they shall write it.
13 And it shall come to pass that the Jews shall have the words of the Nephites, and the Nephites shall have the words of the Jews; and the Nephites and the Jews shall have the words of the lost tribes of Israel; and the lost tribes of Israel shall have the words of the Nephites and the Jews.
14 And it shall come to pass that my people, which are of the house of Israel, shall be gathered home unto the lands of their possessions; and my word also shall be gathered in one. And I will show unto them that fight against my word and against my people, who are of the house of Israel, that I am God, and that I covenanted with Abraham that I would remember his seed forever.

Further, our belief is that the Lord himself ministered to the lost tribes, for they are not lost unto God. The lost ten tribes will produce the third witness that Jesus is the Christ. Their record will contain the story of Christ’s visit to them after his ascension and visit to the Nephites:

3 Ne 17:4 But now I go unto the Father, and also to show myself unto the lost tribes of Israel, for they are not lost unto the father, for he knoweth wither he hath taken them.

One last reference from the New Testament:

2 Corinthians 13:1 In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

[Elsie]

I don't... but then I think I'm in good company, both in the recent past as well as early Chruch fathers....

Seems like there is nothing new under the sun...

---

Genesis 3:4-5
4. And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5. For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

It was Satan's first lie; it worked, so he still uses it.

[Elsie]

No no no...

It’s hard for YOU to come up with a document to prove YOUR point.

[Elsie]

Now considering how the ancient scholars respected the words of Enoch, and considering how Jude, the brother of Jesus thought his prophecies of the last days were worthy of inclusion, then perhaps you can see that you just might be on the wrong side of this matter?

But the FACTS are that the 'ancients' did NOT include it in the Bible, as much as you'd like it to be there.

Trust his words all you want; but as for me, I'll trust in what Jesus has said.

[Elsie]

...because God has always commanded his children to write their histories...

HE has??

[Elsie]

...because God has always commanded his children to write their histories...

HE has??

---

I shall also speak unto all nations of the earth and they shall write it.

Then ALL nations have records of the TRUTH of GOD?

[Reno232]

And the Lord said not to put those books in the bible, or did man? If the Lord had said, don’t include these books in the bible, then I’m w/ you brother. The fact is, those decisions were made by man. Are you putting your trust therefore in the arm of the flesh, or the Lord? I trust what the Lord has said both directly & through His prophets & apostles. Not so sure I trust what MAN has decided what to include & what not to. Pretty sound reasoning don’t ya think?

[Utah Girl]

I'm in a Bible study group at work (all denominations are welcome.) We're studying John in the New Testament. One of the women picked up some contemporary language. It's pretty interesting. Here is what it says (The name of book of John is The Life-Light):

The Word was first
The Word present to God
God present to the Word
The Word was God
in readiness for God from day one.

There once was a man, his name John, sent by God to point out the way to the Life-Light. He came to show everyone where to look, who to believe in. John was not himself the Light; he was there to show the way to the Light.

The Word became flesh and blood,
and moved into the neighborhood

The Message: The Gospel of John in Contemporary Language

[sevenbak]

Genesis 3:4-5

4. And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

5. For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

It was Satan's first lie; it worked, so he still uses it.

Satan's first lie? Keep reading, perhaps you can explain why God say this just a few verses later:

Genesis 3:22

And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

The lie wasn't about man becoming as God, it was about man living forever after the fall... which he would have btw, if God hadn't protected the tree of life with an Angel and sword.

BTW, since you think C.S. Lewis is a follower of Satan's lie, perhaps you might want to tell all your evangelical friends who forked out big bucks to see "Narnia; The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe" that it was all a lie.

GeeGollyWally, if they only knew the truth!!

[sevenbak]

It’s hard for YOU to come up with a document to prove YOUR point.

OK, you win, this back and forth is killing me. I'll go first:

Here are early sources which mention Moroni that were edited by Joseph Smith and others (some even hostile), which demonstrate that the story about Moroni was well known to members of the Church and even enemies:

D&C 27:5 - 1830–1835

…and with Moroni, whom I have sent unto you to reveal the book of Mormon, containing the fulness of my everlasting gospel. D&C 27:5

Mormonism Unvailed - 1834, reprinted as History of Mormonism in 1840 [anti-Mormon work]

After he had finished translating the Book of Mormon, he again buried up the plates in the side of a mountain, by command of the Lord; some time after this, he was going through a piece of woods, on a by-path, when he discovered an old man dressed in ordinary grey apparel...The Lord told him that the man he saw was MORONI, with the plates

Messenger and Advocate - 1835

I have now given you a rehearsal of what was communicated to our brother, when he was directed to go and obtain the record of the Nephites…and I believe that the angel Moroni, whose words I have been rehearsing, who communicated the knowledge of the record of the Nephites, in this age, saw also, before he hid up the same unto the Lord, great and marvelous things, which were to transpire when the same should come forth.

Elder's Journal - July 1838

For those holy men are angels now. And these are they, who make the fulness of times complete with us. And they who sin against this authority given to him...sins not against him only, but against Moroni, who holds the keys of the stick of Ephraim.

Elder's Journal - July 1838

How, and where did you obtain the book of Mormon?...Moroni, the person who deposited the plates, from whence the book of Mormon was translated, in a hill in Manchester, Ontario County, New York, being dead, and raised again therefrom, appeared unto me and told me where they were and gave me directions how to obtain them. I obtained them and the Urim and Thummim with them, by the means of which I translated the plates and thus came the book of Mormon.

D&C 128 - 1842

And again, what do we hear? Glad tidings from Cumorah! Moroni, an angel from heaven, declaring the fulfilment of the prophets—the book to be revealed. (D&C 128:20)

Now, since it's your theory (really the anti sites, but you accept them hook line and sinker, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt) that there is documentation proving Joseph claimed Nephi as the angel, I will now let you post what you can to support that claim.

Have fun!

Also, just to throw a little wrench into the mix, Joseph did say that he was visited by Nephi as well as many ancient prophets as the fullness of the Gospel was restored, so that may be where the printers error happened, but I'll leave that to you to find it. He never said it was Nephi who came in place of Moroni. Cheers! ;-)