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To: GLDNGUN
Perhaps you would like to answer my post 309 re: the trinity. Perhaps you can reconcile your belief in one God w/ the scriptures in John that I cite in post 309.

Let me add one more of a myriad I could add: John 5:22 “For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son”.

If they’re one God, why would the Father commit all judgment to the Son? Why not just say, I the Lord Judge. Period!

I appreciate your fervor & respect your beliefs but your indignant tone does you a disservice when faced w/ viable alternatives to you beliefs. Alternatives that many would see as very clear in the bible.

404 posted on 09/20/2007 8:52:26 AM PDT by Reno232
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To: Reno232
Perhaps you would like to answer my post 309 re: the trinity. Perhaps you can reconcile your belief in one God w/ the scriptures in John that I cite in post 309.

First of all, I don't think God is going to send anyone to hell for not completely understanding the Trinity. To me, anyway, it's not a big deal if someone, as some Christians no doubt do, imagine God the Father with a body and Jesus Christ, His Son, with a different physical body. The problem is when Mormon doctrine then jumps off the cliff with drastic leaps of logic, like God once being a man and men becoming gods. This is completely against the whole of the Bible, as is the concept of more than 1 God.

It's rather amusing that you state "your belief in one God..." as if that is something that Christians believe for no good reason. For every verse you can find to twist to suit your purposes of supporting LDS doctrine that there are millions of Gods, I can show you 10 that state there is ONE GOD. Period.

Wouldn't it be cool if there was a prophet on the earth as in days of old to clear up these kinds of issues? To set the record straight.

And let me guess...Joseph Smith was that "prophet", right? Yes, he really cleared up the question of the Trinity and nature of God, didn't he? I mean the Book of Mormon contains "the fulness of the gospel", right? Surely, it MUST explain how wrong the idea of the Trinity is, and that God the Father and Jesus are 2 distinct physical beings, right?

OOPS! Your Book of Mormon says NO SUCH THING! Have you even read the Book of Mormon? I don't see how you could be confused about the trinity IF you have read the Book of Mormon and IF you actually believe it contains "the fulness of the gospel".

Let's start with 2 Nephi 2:13-14

"And if ye shall say there is no law, ye shall also say there is no sin. If ye shall say there is no sin, ye shall also say there is no righteousness. And if there be no righteousness there be no happiness. And if there be no righteousness nor happiness there be no punishment nor misery. And if these things are not there is no God. And if there is no God we are not, neither the earth; for there could have been no creation of things, neither to act nor to be acted upon; wherefore, all things must have vanished away. And now, my sons, I speak unto you these things for your profit and learning; for there is a God, and he hath created all things, both the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are, both things to act and things to be acted upon."

WHO, according to the Book of Mormon created the universe?Only one God is mentioned.

2 Nephi 9:20

"O how great the holiness of our God! For he knoweth all things, and there is not anything save he knows it."

Hmmmm...according to this passage, God knows everything; He is omniscient. No god in a physical body can know everything.

Let's examine 2 Nephi 10:7

"But, behold, thus saith the Lord God: When the day cometh that they shall believe in me, that I am Christ, then have I covenanted with their fathers that they shall be restored in the flesh, upon the earth, unto the lands of their inheritance."

Here we learn that Christ is God. Eventually everyone will be restored to the flesh on this planet, not each on a planet of his own.

Go to 2 Nephi 11:6-7

"And my soul delighteth in proving unto my people that save Christ should come all men must perish. For if there be no Christ there be no God; and if there be no God we are not, for there could have been no creation. But there is a God, and he is Christ, and he cometh in the fulness of his own time."

This passage again demonstrates that Christ is God. Not "a god". Not just "one in purpose". God. Period.

Examine 2 Nephi 19:6

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder; and his name shall be called, Wonderful, Counselor, The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

This passage is describing God the Son, yet it says that He shall be called The Everlasting Father! Here is yet another contradiction of standard Mormon "insider doctrine", because it maintains that the Son and the Father are two separate beings with human bodies. Here we learn that They are one and the same Being.

It is quite clear that the Book of Mormon supports orthodox Christianity much better than it does current Mormon doctrine!

Turn to 2 Nephi 26:12

"And as I spake concerning the convincing of the Jews, that Jesus is the very Christ, it must needs be that the Gentiles be convinced also that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God;"

Yet again, another passage that indicates that Jesus is God, and that He is eternal.

Now look at Mosiah 3:8

"And he shall be called Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of heaven and earth, the Creator of all things from the beginning; and his mother shall be called Mary."

Here we learn once more that Jesus created the universe, and is the Father.

Let's examine Mosiah 15:1-5

"And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people. And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son--The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and the Son--And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth. And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation, but suffereth himself to be mocked, and scourged, and cast out, and disowned by his people."

While this passage is somewhat confusing and perhaps even nonsensical, it does clearly state that the Father and Son are one God. It clearly says that the Father is spirit and the Son is flesh. And please don't put out the pitiful response "well, every body has a spirit". The BoM ONLY states that the Father is a spirit and NOWHERE says he has a physical body, unless it's identifying God the Father as Jesus Christ.

For example, Alma 18:26-30

"And then Ammon said: Believest thou that there is a Great Spirit? And he said, Yea. And Ammon said: This is God. And Ammon said unto him again: Believest thou that this Great Spirit, who is God, created all things which are in the heaven and in the earth? And he said: Yea, I believe that he created all things which are in the earth; but I do not know the heavens. And Ammon said unto him: The heavens is a place where God dwells and all his holy angels."

Nothing much I can add to that.

Consider now Moroni 8:18

"For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity."

So, from the Book of Mormon we can glean its teaching on the nature of God: God existed from all eternity UNCHANGED, and will exist to all eternity, UNCHANGED. He did not grow up on some planet as a mortal man created by some other "god". GOD has always existed as GOD and always will. Period.

Let's consider 3 Nephi 11:22-27, and verse 36

"And again the Lord called others, and said unto them likewise; and he gave unto them power to baptize. And he said unto them: On this wise shall ye baptize; and there shall be no disputations among you. Verily I say unto you, that whoso repenteth of his sins through your words and desireth to be baptized in my name, on this wise shall ye baptize them--Behold, ye shall go down and stand in the water, and in my name shall ye baptize them. And now behold, these are the words which ye shall say, calling them by name, saying: Having authority given me of Jesus Christ, I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen. And then shall ye immerse them in the water, and come forth again out of the water. And after this manner shall ye baptize in my name; for behold, verily I say unto you, that the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost are one; and I am in the Father, and the Father in me, and the Father and I are one...And thus will the Father bear record of me, and the Holy Ghost will bear record unto him of the Father and me; for the Father, and I, and the Holy Ghost are one."

A clear statement of the Christian Trinity. The Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost are one!

And then there's 2 Nephi 31:21

"And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen."

There it is again: the Christian Trinity, consisting of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, is one God. Not three gods, not three of many millions of gods, but ONE GOD and only ONE GOD.

Feel free to study up on the LDS "Lectures of Faith" that were published in the D&C until 1921. Without vote or notice they were yanked out. Why? Because, as I pointed out on another post THEY WERE IN DIRECT CONTRADICTION OF MORMON DOCTRINE IN REGARDS TO THE NATURE OF GOD. They taught that God is SPIRT and the Jesus is FLESH, and that the Holy Ghost was the mind. Again, spare me the "well, God HAS has a spirit, so that was true" argument. It says SPIRIT, period, and NOTHING about a body. Additionally, if those scriptures didn't contradict with the doctrine later adopted by the LDS church, there would have been no reason to remove them. By their very removal the LDS Church has admitted that "there's a problem" there.

The Lord never said prophets were no longer needed nor that we would never have one to lead us again.

Funny you should say such a thing. Actually the Bible DOES say prophets are no longer needed. Simply read the first 2 verses of Hebrews. It states that BEFORE Christ, God did send prophets but that Jesus replaced that system. We now have direct access to God through Christ.

All these different Christian Churches w/ all their different & competing doctrines.

As if all "Mormons" don't have "different and competing doctrines". There have been over 100 Mormon splinter groups in the brief time since Joe Smith wrote the Book of Mormon. Smith said he would be succeeded by his son...and he was. Backed by Emma Smith, Joseph Smith's first wife, he became the head of the RLDS Church, now the Community of Christ Church. They actually follow that Book of Mormon for what it's worth. They reject plurality of wives, plurality of gods, and other LDS doctrines not found in the BoM and most often contradicted by the BoM. Then we have the FLDS groups, practicing polygamy in Utah by tens of thousands TODAY. They also believe THEY are the restored church and the SLC LDS Church is apostate.

So much for that "latter day prophet" clearing up all that "confusion". Good grief.

437 posted on 09/21/2007 1:30:38 AM PDT by GLDNGUN
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