Daniel Bible Study (Ongoing Thread) Continuing To Revelation

Bible | 7-20-04 | Christians

[DAVEY CROCKETT]

This study evolved from the Threat Matrix Thread to the Threat Potentials Thread. The study is becoming detailed and I thought it needed it's own thread to make easier access to the information.

I am going to copy and paste the first seven chapters and comments. Feel free to comment at any time on any verse and or cross reference.

May GOD Bless us with His divine wisdom. Amen

[DAVEY CROCKETT]

Muslims Protest On Temple Mount As Jordan Resumes Custody

David Parsons, International Christian Embassy Jerusalem
August 9, 2004

Some 15,000 Muslims associated with the radical Islamic Movement in Israel staged a provocative rally on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem on Saturday amid reports that Israel has quietly placed Jordan back in charge of the Dome of the Rock and Al-Aqsa mosque.

http://www.truthnews.net/world/2004080003.htm

[DAVEY CROCKETT]

230 North American Jews move to Israel

By Haaretz Service and The Associated Press

Some 230 North American Jews immigrated to Israel on Wednesday in one of three planeloads of North American immigrants to arrive in Israel over the last few weeks.

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/463454.html

[DAVEY CROCKETT]

Israel's 'lost tribe' in India may be allowed to immigrate
Press Trust of India
Jerusalem, August 11

The Indian Jews from the Northeast, commonly known as the Bnei Menashe, have expressed hope that their relatives would be able to immigrate to Israel after a rabbinical fact-finding team that has returned from India submits its report in about two weeks

http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_941873,00050004.htm

[DocRock]

7:2 "the great sea" is the Mediterranean Sea in this passage, not a mass of people as in other references to "sea". <

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GREAT! Will get to 8 tomorrow I hope! Can you expand on the above verse a little more so I can get it in my mind. This will be real important, don't want to miss anything.

In 7:2 is the words "great sea" = Med. Sea, (the actual geographical location of this prophecy)

7:3 says, "And four great beasts came up from the sea" which refers to Rev. 17:15 "And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues."

On a side note, I live in Central Florida and will be preparing for the " the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea... " from Charley. I have to batten down the hatches and won't be around much in the next couple days. Hopefully, I'll still have cable access for the Internet. God Bless and prayers for our troops, their families, our nation, our leaders and those in the path of these storms. Regards, DocRock

[1john2 3and4]

i pray that all is well for you and ALL! i went thru 'cleo' in lauderdale as a kid, and hope and pray you guys down there dont get hit too hard!

re: the little horn's id as antiochus epiphanes (#246). i dont think that the history of ae fulfills the prophetic description on several points, but i think ONE point (of disagreement with prophecy) would be enough to disqualify ae as being the little horn.

ae died more than a century before the birth of jesus, and did not (could not have) stood up against, or "magnified himself even to the prince of the host" (jesus). regards, john

[Quix]

I certainly believe we will be seeing more and more of a return to Israel.

Have long wondered what it would take to get NYC Jews back to Israel. Massive terror attacks could do it.

In any case, it seems to me that before the bulk of the end times prophecies are fulfilled, most of the world's Jews must be back in Israel.

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On other issues for those not getting the FREEPMAIL:

I basically have no quibble with historical fulfillments for some of these things.

I just believe the MAIN fulfillments await us, still. That is, that the reasons for the prophecies, the main fulfillments of the prophecies, the focus of the prophecies are the end times we live in with specific fulfillments scheduled for our times.

Perhaps the historical fulfillments were as pointers in some manners--clues to end time fulfillments. Perhaps they were to confuse the RELIGIOUS as in the pharisees in life--the enemies--in a sense. I don't know. I just have a pretty strong bias that in general--the end times related prophecies are primarily FOR THE END TIMES that we find ourselves in.

I suspect that the little horn will be a sort of point person for the AntiChrist--set up as a forerunner carrying the world government banner and moving things along in that direction--perhaps as head of the EU. Or, perhaps the puppet masters set up some Arab to head a pan Arab confederation and that could be a little horn.

I don't see Russia being a little horn. I don't see China or the USA being a little horn. The South Americans are too proud and fractious to have a confederation of their own. I don't really think Japan is in any position to be a little horn on the world stage militarily. And, I believe it must be militarily. A neutered, toothless little horn doesn't make much sense to me in the context of everything.

But, the EU or an Arab confederation or perhaps an Arab confederation with India--I could imagine any of those as a little horn vaunting itself to be more than it has a right to be.

But at some point, the AC will sweep away all other contenders and assume absolute world leader control.

imho.

Thanks for your contributions.

[DocRock]

Thanks for your prayers and just to clarify, the little horns are different. One is the AC which plucks up three other horns and the other is AE that desecrated the temple.

We haven't really got to that part of Chapter 8 yet, but here is just the first hit on a search I did on him. He is a "forerunner" or a glimpse of the Antichrist to come.

LINK

[judicial meanz]

Excellent thread folks....just stopped by to say hi and do some reading.

You guys rock!

[DAVEY CROCKETT]

This is a good point to make...AC to be like

Antiochus Epiphanes


Antiochus Epiphanes was a Syrian King that came to power about 175 BC and is the representative forerunner of the Anti-christ soon to appear. He was one of the Seleucids who in succession to Alexander the Great built a realm in Syria and adjacent lands. Epiphanes' name means God made manifest. Epiphanes sought to force Greek culture and manners on the Jews. In imposing Hellenism, Epiphanes was but following out the intentions of his predecessor, Alexander whose dream was to create an empire, not by the sword but by culture. This had a measure of success among the 'free thinking' section of the priesthood, but there were a hard core of obstinate priests and people who refused to abandon the faith of their fore-fathers and be 'westernized'. By the introduction of Hellenistic cults, Epiphanes tried to put an end to the Jewish religious community. The events were the cause of the Maccabean struggle. Severe punitive measures merely brought the matter to a head and the revolt followed.
In 170 a law was announced requiring all citizens to present themselves four times a year to pay formal homage to Antiochus Epiphanes as the senior god of the Seleucids. The day chosen for these periodic submissions was Shabbat, when Jews preferred not to leave their homes, this being their day of prayer. Epiphanes was met by revolt and the setting up of a small state in which the high priest was the central figure. He launched against the Jews soon after. The Maccebean revolt gained the Jews their independence.

It is an exciting time for Judah when the heroes of the revolt were kindled. In 168 BC Antiochus Epiphanes dared to occupy Jerusalem, enter the Holy of Holies, desecrate the sanctuary by offering unclean animals upon the alter of burnt-offerings, pollute the whole building by sprinkling it with water in which flesh had been boiled, dedicated the Temple itself to Jupiter Olympius, and erected the statue of that deity and plundered the temple treasures.

Antiochus Epiphanes represents the type of 'the abomination of desolation' foretold by the prophet Daniel, on the altar of the Lord in the inner court of the Temple. Antiochus Epiphanes serves as a foreshadowing of the Anti-christ to come in the days ahead. Many Old Testament types pointing to end time fulfillments are first in the natural and second in the spiritual, so we may see the spiritual temple defiled in these days. Prophecies concerning Antichrist would be 8th chapter of Daniel: first Greece and Alexander, then four notables. Daniel "And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences shall stand up. etc.." May also be prefigured in Dan 11.6 as the king of the north.
[08, 23, 319, 304, Daniel, 392]

[DocRock]

"In 168 BC Antiochus Epiphanes dared to occupy Jerusalem, enter the Holy of Holies, desecrate the sanctuary by offering unclean animals upon the alter of burnt-offerings, pollute the whole building by sprinkling it with water in which flesh had been boiled, dedicated the Temple itself to Jupiter Olympius, and erected the statue of that deity and plundered the temple treasures. "

This "little horn" is the one in Dan 8:9 and it is important when discussing the timing laid out in Dan 8:14 and on. When the temple was cleansed of this act.

This little horn in 8:9 is Antiochus Epiphanes and the little horn in 7:8 that plucks up three other horns is the Antichrist. Totally different, but the same words describe them... "little horn".

[RobRoy]

Bookmark

[DAVEY CROCKETT]

In 7:2 is the words "great sea" = Med. Sea, (the actual geographical location of this prophecy)

I believe the actual geographical location is Shinar. See below verse... What would be the reason for the Med. Sea to be placed here?


Daniel 1:2 The Lord gave Jehoiakim king of Judah into his hand, along with some of the vessels of the house of God; and he brought them to the land of Shinar, to the house of his god, and he brought the vessels into the treasury of his god.

The Land of Shinar
The Land of Shinar was a general geographic term for what is today Iraq, known in ancient times as Mesopotamia. There, two of the greatest of ancient empires, Assyria and Babylon, were centered. Shinar is mentioned very early in Bible History, it being the location of the famous "tower of Babel" that was constructed after the Flood.

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I agree with your meaning but cannot tie in Rev.17:15 please explain.

7:3 says, "And four great beasts came up from the sea" which refers to Rev. 17:15 "And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues."
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I still don't get it HELP! Maybe we are using different translations. I am using NASB. I have cross referenced the cross references forward and backward. I still see that sea=peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues and that in the end from the sea the saints will receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever.
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The following is (fill in the blank) with your interpretation.
Daniel 7
2 Daniel said, "I was looking in my vision by night, and behold, the four winds of heaven were stirring up the (Mediterranean Sea) great sea.
This will work and I understand....
3 "And four great beasts were coming up from the (peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues) sea, different from one another.

The Vision Interpreted

16 "I approached one of those who were standing by and began asking him the exact meaning of all this. So he told me and made known to me the interpretation of these things:
17 'These great beasts, which are four in number, are four kings who will arise from the earth.
18 'But the saints of the Highest One will receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever, for all ages to come.'

[DAVEY CROCKETT]

re: the little horn's id as antiochus epiphanes (#246). i dont think that the history of ae fulfills the prophetic description on several points, but i think ONE point (of disagreement with prophecy) would be enough to disqualify ae as being the little horn.

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I agree ae is not ac. posted his history from Quix just as some example of what we are looking at.

[DAVEY CROCKETT]

Thanks hang around.I am driving myself nuts going back and fort from here to TM. Pray there is not a flame war at the same time on both:) LOL
smiles

[BriarBey]

whose dream was to create an empire, not by the sword but by culture.
*****

The anti-christ will conquer by peace.

[DAVEY CROCKETT]

You have some interesting ideas below is my guess. I believe it is going to end exactly where it began.

I suspect that the little horn will be a sort of point person for the AntiChrist--set up as a forerunner carrying the world government banner and moving things along in that direction--perhaps as head of the EU. Or, perhaps the puppet masters set up some Arab to head a pan Arab confederation and that could be a little horn.

[Quix]

What are the odds that the little horn is a subservient person to the AC vs being the AC?

[DocRock]

In 7:2 is the words "great sea" = Med. Sea, (the actual geographical location of this prophecy)

I believe the actual geographical location is Shinar. See below verse... What would be the reason for the Med. Sea to be placed here?

All of these empires in this section did at some point boarder the Mediteranian Sea. The term "great sea" was used numerous times in the Old Testament to refer to the Med.
Num 34:6, Num 34:7, Jos 1:4, Jos 9:1, Jos 15:12, Jos 15:47, Jos 23:4, Ezk 47:10, Ezk 47:15, Ezk 47:19, Ezk 47:20 all refer to the Med. Sea as the "great sea".

Daniel 1:2 The Lord gave Jehoiakim king of Judah into his hand, along with some of the vessels of the house of God; and he brought them to the land of Shinar, to the house of his god, and he brought the vessels into the treasury of his god. The Land of Shinar The Land of Shinar was a general geographic term for what is today Iraq, known in ancient times as Mesopotamia. There, two of the greatest of ancient empires, Assyria and Babylon, were centered. Shinar is mentioned very early in Bible History, it being the location of the famous "tower of Babel" that was constructed after the Flood.

Not sure about your point, however, I agree that Daniel was in what is modern day Iraq.

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I agree with your meaning but cannot tie in Rev.17:15 please explain.

7:3 says, "And four great beasts came up from the sea" which refers to Rev. 17:15 "And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues."

See : Rev 13:1 "And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy." This is explained in Rev 17:15

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I still don't get it HELP! Maybe we are using different translations. I am using NASB. I have cross referenced the cross references forward and backward. I still see that sea=peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues and that in the end from the sea the saints will receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever.

The NASB has it's roots in the corrupted Sinaiticus and Vaticanus. These manuscripts are a source of major confusion in Bible study and as stated in I Cor. 14:33, "For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints".

To pick up a Bible and see if it has been corrupted, there is a simple test. 1 John 5:7 should state: "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." This is the verse that provides a born again Christian with the understanding that The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are "three in one" and that Jesus Christ is the Word of God, (See John 1:1-14 and Rev. 19:13).

I feel that the discussion of manuscripts would be better served in a different thread as it could derail this Daniel discussion. I use the King James Version.
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The following is (fill in the blank) with your interpretation.
Daniel 7
2 Daniel said, "I was looking in my vision by night, and behold, the four winds of heaven were stirring up the (Mediterranean Sea) great sea.
This will work and I understand....
3 "And four great beasts were coming up from the (peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues) sea, different from one another.

The Vision Interpreted

16 "I approached one of those who were standing by and began asking him the exact meaning of all this. So he told me and made known to me the interpretation of these things:
17 'These great beasts, which are four in number, are four kings who will arise from the earth.
18 'But the saints of the Highest One will receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever, for all ages to come.'

I'm kind of lost here. What are you looking for?

[DocRock]

I'm a few hours from having to deal with hurricane Charley as I live between Orlando and Tampa. I may be off this thread for a while depending on the damage to power lines and my cable connection, (I use Tampabay Road Runner). I'll keep everyone posted about my status.

[DocRock]

re: the little horn's id as antiochus epiphanes (#246). i dont think that the history of ae fulfills the prophetic description on several points, but i think ONE point (of disagreement with prophecy) would be enough to disqualify ae as being the little horn.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I agree ae is not ac. posted his history from Quix just as some example of what we are looking at.

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See my post # 270 above. There are two different "little horns". One is the future time view of the Antichrist and the other is AE (a.k.a. Antiochus IV). There is no question about his desecration of the temple and it's importance in referencing the time line laid out later in Daniel.