The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles)

AP ^ | 3/24/01

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Previous Thread

[RnMomof7]

Bass thinks I went over the line ... and he is most likely right . I am sorry

[malakhi]

Becky, freepmail.

[the808bass]

We say it was because the Father draws them.

Rilly? I'd never thought of that. But now that you mention it, I shall adopt this as my doctrine as well. I think I've said it before, but it only counts when I say it in agreement with you, I guess.

That the Holy Spirit quickened them and restored the will that was in bondage because of the fall ...and you say ?

We would say that the Holy Spirit draws us and those who respond are then quickened. But you already knew that, you just can't fathom it. And further, that the sin of the first Adam is overcome by the grace of the second, and that this prevenient grace draws all unto God.

[RnMomof7]

      7. If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted?--A better rendering is, "Shalt thou not have the excellency"? which is the true sense of the words referring to the high privileges and authority belonging to the first-born in patriarchal times.
      sin lieth at the door--sin, that is, a sin offering--a common meaning of the word in Scripture (as in Hsa 4:8 2Cr 5:21 Hbr 9:28 ). The purport of the divine rebuke to Cain was this, "Why art thou angry, as if unjustly treated?
If thou doest well (that is, wert innocent and sinless) a thank offering would have been accepted as a token of thy dependence as a creature.
But as thou doest not well (that is, art a sinner), a sin offering is necessary, by bringing which thou wouldest have met with acceptance and retained the honors of thy birthright." This language implies that previous instructions had been given as to the mode of worship; Abel offered through faith ( Hbr 11:4 ).
      unto thee shall be his desire--The high distinction conferred by priority of birth is described ( Gen 27:29 ); and it was Cain's conviction, that this honor had been withdrawn from him, by the rejection of his sacrifice, and conferred on his younger brother--hence the secret flame of jealousy, which kindled into a settled hatred and fell revenge.

Jamieson, Fausett & Brown

[the808bass]

Well then you do not mind giving me the citation right ?

Certainly not. And since I know how important italics, caps and the like are, I have taken my liberties with the formatting of the text as follows:

Romans2:14 Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do BY NATURE things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15 since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, THEIR CONSCIENCES ALSO BEARING WITNESS, and their thoughts NOW accusing, NoW eVeN defending them.

[the808bass]

Why are some people more sensitive to the gospel than others ?

Some people are raised in an environment more conducive to receiving the Gospel. Some are in situations more conducive to receiving the Gospel.

What does God say in His word?

Yes, nevermind how God's word interacts with human experience. Let's propositionally quantify it to death. I expect much vitriol and righteous indignation at my response. Please do not disappoint.

[RnMomof7]

We would say that the Holy Spirit draws us and those who respond are then quickened. But you already knew that, you just can't fathom it. And further, that the sin of the first Adam is overcome by the grace of the second, and that this prevenient grace draws all unto God.

So then the scripture is wrong the Father does not draw, it is the Holy Spirit?

Can I have some scripture not just your opinion? :>)

Only one of us is posting the word of God.

Scripture that the Holy Spirit draws not the Father and scripture that what we call General grace (you call Prevenient grace draws every one to salvation and then it is theirs to loose.)

[the808bass]

Bass thinks I went over the line ... and he is most likely right . I am sorry

At the risk of beating a mostly dead horse, Mom, I don't think you "went over the line." I think that what you said is well within the bounds of how we converse on this thread. I do think you applied a double standard to Cindy's interpretation of your beliefs as opposed to how you intepret other's beliefs. And over and above an apology, a recognition of this would be far more desirable. But that's just me.

[the808bass]

So then the scripture is wrong the Father does not draw, it is the Holy Spirit?

To try to limit a function or characteristic of God to a certain member of the Trinity is absolutely inane. The same characteristics are listed as applying to both Jesus, the Father and the Spirit in multiple places.

Only one of us is posting the word of God.

If you cannot recognize Biblical themes and content then I cannot make you do so. If you are so unfamiliar with the Bible that you do not know of the first and second Adam parallelism, then we are at cross purposes. If you'd like me to spew out some Scripture following each theological point I make, I'm sure I could. After all, if a person can't find a Scripture to support their idea (no matter half-cocked or offbeat the idea is), they really aren't trying hard enough.

[Havoc]

Thanks Mal ;)

[malakhi]

but can you show me where it says in the scripture that an unsaved man can do anything to please God?

But if a wicked man turns away from all his sins which he has committed and keeps all my statutes and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; for the righteousness which he has done he shall live.
Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, says the Lord GOD, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live? (Ezekiel 18:21-23)

The repentence of the sinner pleases God.

[Havoc]

Only if you do the our fathers ok ;) (have to rib).
Appreciate your concern, well wishes and anyprayer to God on the matter. Whether you're on my side or not, he's on all our sides as long as we do what he says. And that's quite comforting.

[RnMomof7]

Romans2:14 Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do BY NATURE things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15 since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, THEIR CONSCIENCES ALSO BEARING WITNESS, and their thoughts NOW accusing, NoW eVeN defending them.

This does not say that unregenerate man can come to Christ without being regenerated . This is a teaching of Paul that we all need a Savior, that all men know the law (without the law there is no sin) from the tablets or the heart . . They know when they "sin" as their conscience tells them and accuses them . They are ruled as guilty and as much in need of a Savior as the Jews.

Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

Paul sums up the need for a Savior in the next chapter

Rom 3:9 What then? are we better [than they]? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

The clear doctrine that Paul is attempting to teach is man needs a Saviour . He goes on to teach we can not find that Savior ourselves. We do not understand the scriptures nor do we seek God . We have all gone out of our way

[the808bass]

This does not say that unregenerate man can come to Christ without being regenerated.

Right. Which is exactly what I said. We just disagree about when the regeneration takes place. You think we are prepared for salvation by regeneration. I think we are regenerated by salvation.

[Havoc]

Mack, so far the only thing I've needed has been an Albuterol inhaler. But, after 4 years, I'm starting to occasionally lose feeling i my extremities, get headaches
and have memory issues. I'm also starting to feel it in my back. So, it may be time to move up to the next level of treatment; but, we'll see.

The majority of the time, I'm fine as long as I don't over exert myself.

[RnMomof7]

To try to limit a function or characteristic of God to a certain member of the Trinity is absolutely inane. The same characteristics are listed as applying to both Jesus, the Father and the Spirit in multiple places.

So then why does Jesus make distinctions on the roles of the various members of the Trinity?

He said the Father draws , the Son saves and judges and the Holy Spirit teaches and convicts . I would say there is a reason for it never being said that the Holy Spirit draws.

If you cannot recognize Biblical themes and content then I cannot make you do so. If you are so unfamiliar with the Bible that you do not know of the first and second Adam parallelism, then we are at cross purposes. If you'd like me to spew out some Scripture following each theological point I make, I'm sure I could. After all, if a person can't find a Scripture to support their idea (no matter half-cocked or offbeat the idea is), they really aren't trying hard enough.

Obviously we do not agree on the" themes "and so only reference the Scripture make this anymore than suppositional doctrine . I am asking for scriptural proof of what you say is true . Some times that can be various verses, or it can be a summary of biblically taught truths.

[malakhi]

As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one

Presumably Paul is here citing Psalm 14.

Do you think the psalmist meant this literally? Do you think that he intended to apply it to every human who ever lived?

[RnMomof7]

Right. Which is exactly what I said. We just disagree about when the regeneration takes place. You think we are prepared for salvation by regeneration. I think we are regenerated by salvation.

Base , that is about 75% of the difference between Calvinism and Arminianism

Do you want to discuss this difference tomorrow? It is a significant difference and the heart of why Calvinists see Arminianism a work based salvation and Arminians think Calvinists are on "a short string"

[Havoc]

Thank you Q, much appreciated. As I said, I leave it in Gods hands and think mostly of Moses. Whatever God needed Moses to do, he told Moses and made the way for it to happen. So long as I march where I'm led, I think it will be dealt with in God's time. But I don't think we're gonna all be here much longer. If you can read the signs of the times, you know it's just about time to get off the highway.

As for how long this lasts otherwise, I can't say. I've known many people with emphysema in my local community. With the exception of one, they're all gone. Most of them didn't last a year. A few of them made it 3 years. So I feel I'm doin pretty doggon good though it's a little restrictive.

As for what I do, I will continue being the comparative religion pain in the butt most are used to till my dying breath - whenever it is. I will continue the message of the Annointed one with all authority. Never say die, never surrender, never, never, never :)

[malakhi]

At least this one doesn't appear to have been in the store...

Lowe's Customer Bitten by Rattlesnake
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