Posted on 03/20/2009 12:11:23 PM PDT by pissant
NEW ORLEANS—Louisiana has 15 days to add the names of both fathers to the birth certificate of a boy born in Shreveport and adopted by a gay couple from out-of-state, a federal judge has ruled.
The state is asking the 5th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals to overturn the ruling by U.S. District Judge Jay Zainey, and to halt the order in the meantime, state Attorney General Buddy Caldwell said Thursday.
"The federal district court has significantly misinterpreted Louisiana vital records law, forcing Louisiana to import and adopt New York law," he wrote in a brief e-mailed statement.
Oren Adar and Mickey Ray Smith, who now live in San Diego, but adopted the boy in New York state, want both their names on his birth certificate.
State officials say that's illegal because, under Louisiana law, two single people cannot adopt a child. Zainey ruled in December that because the adoption became formal in New York, the Office of Vital Records must recognize that state's adoption law on the matter.
(Excerpt) Read more at mercurynews.com ...
Recall that staying there was forced at the barrel of a gun.
This is a sensitive issue for many people. But, the truth is, test tube babies and surrogates led to couples going outside the marriage, and if they're using donors/surrogates, what's the argument against two men or two women coupling and using donors/surrogates?
There was an actual case in my state of two women arguing for both their names to appear on a birth certificate. They won the case based on the fact that heterosexual couples who go outside their marriage for donors/surrogates have their own names (not the names of the donors/surrogates) put on the birth certificate.
Adoptive parents having their names placed on birth certificates led to this mess, too.
How about we DON’T tamper with ANYONE’s BIRTH CERTIFICATES, and instead issue certificates of GUARDIANSHIP for all adoptive parents?
Good idea! If we were in the position to adopt, I would prefer an adoption certificate or a certificate of guardianship. If the birth parents want to remain anonymous, maybe "anonymous" could be written on birth certificates of children who are adopted. I had relatives who were adopted in the old days when I'm pretty sure adoptive parents' names weren't on the BCs. I say so because that's how one relative found out she was adopted - she saw her BC.
Doesn’t make it right, moral, or CONSTITUTIONAL in regards to the rights of the person born who will eventually become an adult. Again legal guardianship should be handled on a SEPARATE LEGAL DOCUMENT it should NOT be conferred through fraudulent or deceptive means by ALTERING the truthful information on a Certificate of Birth.
Bringing into this conversation the intricacies of what should be done when a child is the product of a sperm or egg donor, or a child who has a surrogate mother, etc... etc... will only cloud the issues. Those are SEPARATE from this situation. Those are NOT cases of adoption, and the same laws do NOT apply.
Just because people in this world have decided in their own minds that it’s OK to lie to adoptees doesn’t make it right, nor moral in any way, shape or form...
The fear of the homo-pedophile agenda, for not getting their sex fix with little boys called “sons” is what all liberals fear. Forget the abuse done, we’re just “homophobes”.
I didn’t see your discussion before I posted #62. I just went back and tried to follow it. I think BOTH of you make valid points.
What the law has permitted for heterosexual couples who adopt or use surrogates/donors now is being extended to “same-sex” couples. The court cases are based on it.
Plus, birth certificates really should contain accurate information about a person’s biological parents.
Btw... Hats off to the adoptive parents out there who open their hearts and their homes to a child. This argument is not against adoption at all! It’s against the doctoring of official documents. If all birth certificates were required to contain the correct information, this court case would’ve had a different outcome.
Thank you for seeing these issues and for speaking so clearly. Being so personally and emotionally invested in this issue makes it hard at times. I know it’s hard for adoptive and birth parents as well...
You are right that in times past the records were NOT altered. It would take a considerable amount of time I don’t have at the moment to first re-research the specific facts, and then relay them here, so I hope you will forgive me for not doing so. I got out of activism on this issue years ago because of the psychological and emotional damage it inflicted on me trying to argue against people who wish to perpetually treat me as a child and a second-class citizen. As a result the facts I used to be able to rattle off about this are not in the immediate recall section of my brain any longer! :)
OK, for the sake of my own sanity I’m going to have to FORCE myself to NOT talk about this further right now. Incidentally folks, what you are witnessing in my impassioned and emotional posts on this thread - which apparently have come off to some sounding like I’m a spoiled child whining to get her way — well, that is EXACTLY HOW THESE ISSUES AFFECT US FOR OUR ENTIRE LIVES! Remember that, please.
Hopefully in the near future no child will ever have to go through the betrayal, anger, and suffering I have gone through as a result of people wishing to deceive me.
Oh, and one more thing — just an FYI for those reading this thread — by the time I was 9 years old I KNEW my parents weren’t my “REAL PARENTS” (to use a term a child would use) even though NO-ONE TOLD ME. I KNEW I WAS DIFFERENT. Of course, everyone still denied it, but the truth is something you know in your heart sometimes... (Don’t you think we can tell that we are physically unrelated simply by LOOKING????) Just imagine that for a moment... You can look in the mirror, and then look over at your mother, your father, your aunts, your uncles, and your cousins and SEE THAT YOU DO NOT “MATCH”. Then you go to school, or church and you see OTHER families that you can TELL are all genetically related. It’s like people think we’re stupid just because we’re adopted or something...
Also, it is VERY common to speak to people (like your relative) who find out after decades that they are adopted who will admit to feeling the same way as I described above at least once in their lives. Some people are just better at putting those nagging questions to the back of their minds than others.
We are “damaged” from the moment they take us away from our biological mothers - a baby KNOWS - not to the point that we cannot overcome it and live good lives, but a successful outcome in adoptions REQUIRES TRUTH, and OPENNESS. As far as I’m concerned lying to a child about their adoptive status is CHILD ABUSE and NEGLIGENCE...
Oh, on more thing I’d like to take this opportunity to mention before I go...
Do you all realize that in not telling a child they are adopted, and not being honest with us about our biological origins can and HAS lead to people marrying their OWN SIBLINGS? Now, tell me how THAT is “natural” or MORAL... Some people might even argue that incest is an even BIGGER sin than Homosexuality. I certainly wouldn’t want to be responsible for allowing a situation like that to happen as a result of my being dishonest with my OWN CHILD!!!
TO ALL: I hope everyone on this thread has a wonderful weekend, and I again would simply ask that you might take a few moments to reflect on what I’ve said here. Adoptees needlessly suffer because of these laws, and in the case of medical issues some have even DIED BECAUSE OF THESE LAWS!
Do you all realize that in not telling a child they are adopted, and not being honest with us about our biological origins can and HAS lead to people marrying their OWN SIBLINGS?
Exactly! If we continue down this road of donors/surrogates and hiding the truth from people, eventually an ever-increasing number of people won't know who their biological relatives are, and the risk of engaging in a relationship with someone who's your sibling or even a parent (as in one case) increases.
So a citizen of Louisiana who has a concealed carry permit from his home state has that same right in the state of New York. Right? Seems reasonable to me.
Wow! Who birthed the baby? lol. Jindal has been disappointing lately...maybe he can make up for some of his flip flops (Taking all money for bail out now).
Jindal is taking all the porkulus money. He’s the incredible shrinking candidate.
One word for Jindal, APPEAL!! Take it all the way to the SCOTUS
So true. But sad just the same. He was one of the hopes for the future of the conservatives in the Republican party...I guess it is another one bites the dust. Hopefully someone will step up and keep their principles. We need someone quick for 2012...Didn’t the candidates start in 2005 for the 2008 elections? I think some will begin announcing sometime in the next year.
The original certificate, the authentic one, is always kept in vital records. Adoptive parents get something, but it isn't a certified birth certificate.
“The individual can petition to have the original unsealed as soon as they reach 18.”
This may be true in your state, but it is NOT true in all states. Even in those states which an adoptee is permitted to petition simply “wanting to know” will NOT compel judge to open the records. Do you have any idea how hard it is to get a judge to open adoption records in most states? I know several ATTORNEYS who can’t even get their own records opened - and they’re LAWYERS!!! There have been COUNTLESS cases of adopted children AND adults on DEATH’S DOOR and STILL the judges refuse...
“There is no attempt to hide information from the adopted individual...”
That is patently false. There is most DEFINITELY an effort to hide information from adoptees. Again only a handful of states will allow an adoptee access to their unaltered birth certificate, even as an adult.
I pray that when your son becomes of age, and that if he chooses to learn the truth that the judge you end up in front of is kind. 99.9% of them will NOT release his records — even if you are begging and pleading for his LIFE. I don’t wish to scare you but this is a REAL SITUATION that has happened to too many adoptive parents that I have personally spoken with.
Thank you for adopting your son, and thank you so much for being honest with him, Mom MD. That is the greatest gift (besides loving him and taking him in) that you could possibly give him.
But please recognize that in every state but a handful adoptees do NOT have access to their information without begging a JUDGE, or paying tremendous sums of money to investigators, or our adoption agencies. Heck, my adoption agency wants $500.00 from me to release my UNIDENTIFYING INFORMATION (like what nationality I am). THAT is akin to pure EXTORTION, IMO. I’ll gladly pay for xerox copies, but to charge me $500.00 to send me an abstract of my OWN personal information is NOT right. (Didn’t they get enough money from my adoptive parents when they adopted me in the first place???)
I just wanted to make sure people realize this...
I would also like to say — just to be clear on this — that I am NOT AGAINST (Heterosexual) adoption! I simply want the laws to respect the rights of ALL parties - and frankly, the rights of the ADOPTEE should trump ALL others in this case, especially once they become an adult.
Thanks again to everyone on this thread that has read through my posts, and has been compassionate when it comes to realizing how heart-wrenching these issues are for me to even talk about. I hope sharing my story will help others understand how some adoptees are treated as a result of these laws...
>>Unbelievable. Jindal better go to the mat on this and kick this judge in the teeth. <<
Question - if two men can adopt a child, should they not be legally responsible for life? I’m not sure the right mechanism but if the birth certificate is the way we make people responsible when they adopt a new born then I can understand putting both people who adopt on the certificate.
Now.. that’s a separate issue from gay adoption. But once you have gay adoption they ought to be as responsible as anybody else.
That is not correct. ALL adoptees have their birth certificates altered to show the adoptive parents as the biological parents. While adoptive parents get other documents including an adoption certificate, and while you are correct that original resides in a vault somewhere, looking at an adoptee’s birth certificate there is NO INDICATION WHATSOEVER that they have been adopted.
Mom MD brought up some valid points as far as the argument for why this is necessary as a matter of privacy for the child as they are growing up. However, the abuses that can result from these laws can only be resolved — I’m thinking right at this moment (without taking the time to examine unintended consequences this solution might bring) — by demanding that adoptive parents do not lie to doctors, or their children about these things...
I realize now I’m bringing up other issues, and the conversation on the thread thus far has only really addressed some issues...
Still to be discussed would be the States’ rights issues. Those are important to. So again, I’ll TRY to stay off the thread now and let others discuss... :)
Don’t appeal. Tell them to FO and ignore ‘em.
Western Civilization is on death watch.
Yet we have folks on this thread trying to talk legaleeze about the situation. We need to take Nancy Reagan’s slogan and JUST SAY NO
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