A Question for FR McCain Detractors

FR | 2-23-08 | Bob J

[Bob J]

Ever since Super Tuesday a super debate has been raging on FR concerning John McCain. I was never a McCain supporter, in fact I penned the post Super Tuesday post "Official FR Drinking Thread" so we could together drown our common disappointments into oblivion.

FReepers seem to be moving into three distinct groups. The first are those that have always supported McCain, a lot or partially. There are those that don't like McCain but are willing to support him because they believe they will get some of what they want or to defeat what the see as the more critical danger, Obama or Clinton. The there's the third group, those that viscerally dislike McCain and vow never to vote for him for any reason.

The actions and motivation for support from the first two groups seem obvious...they would rather see McCain in the White House than a dem. But for the life of me I cannot understand some of the actions of the third.

Allow me to explain.

I understand you dislike McCain and the reasons why. He is far too liberal on many issues, he has stabbed conservatives in the back several times and he is too cozy with the dems. These are all defensible reasons to not vote for him or to vote third party and you have every right to vote as you see fit and for whatever reasons you hold. What I don't understand is why some here are making such concerted efforts to dissuade others from voting for or supporting him.

As flawed as McCain is there is no way a logical case can be made that we would be better off under Obama or Hillary (O&H). Even on most issues where McCain is closer to the left than to us, O&H are much farther to the left than he is and would do much more damage than McCain. On the issues where he is not, the WOT, taxes, abortion, etc., the differences are stark and this does not even take into count extended issues like judicial appointments.

So why are you working so hard, so viscerlly, so nasty, to turn votes against McCain? If you truly feel as you do than go sit out November or cast your vote for your 3rd party candidate. That makes sense. What doesn't make sense is why you push for a McCain and GOP loss.

It may be as simple as "misery loves company". It may be that you validate your own position by getting others to believe as you do. It may be that there are some dem propaganda plants on FR. I don't know but I sure would like to and I know others do as well.

[JasonC]

Ah, and shaking Obama supporters support for Obama is supposed to persuade them to what action, exactly? Which is supposed to have what effect on actually stopping him?

Vote for Hillary in the primaries? Pull it out for Huckabee? Start a Ron Paul write-in wave? Or vote for the republican nominee instead of the democrat nominee?

You tell me...

[NewLand]

For four years under a John McCain presidency

DoughtyOne,

I totally respect your opinion and your case is well stated. Normally we are on the same side of an issue, but I have to differ with you here.

How about some conjecture on an 8 year Obama presidency;

* China, Russia, Iran, Syria, and al queda are emboldened by our weak approach to defense of national interests.
* China takes over Taiwan, escalates subversive actions against Japan, has easier access to increase espionage against USA.
* Russia makes aggressive moves to re-capture Eastern Europe satellites, also extends military presence southward toward Iraq.
* Iran escalates attacks against US interests via surrogates and against NATO troops in Afghanistan.

* ...on and on...

And where are conservatives? Continued internal bickering about who is most like Reagan, who is the real future of conservatism, who is to blame for allowing Obama to be elected.

Do we really allow others to define conservatives?

Why can't we rebuild conservative influence from the ground up while McCain is President? At least the odds of our long term survival are better so we have a movement and a country to rebuild.

Many will say, 'the country has survived bad Dems before and can survive again'. Most likely, true enough. But not guaranteed. I like the odds better with McCain as President than with Obama as President for 8 years.

Another option is to work hard for a true conservative party candidate to run as a 3rd party. Considering the Dems are poised to be split apart, this may be a unique time in history and could allow us to truly pit liberalism versus conservatism on the national ballot under their true names. This can not be done under the current and historic baggage of "D" and "R".

If you and others work hard in a committed fashion to nominate and elect a different option for President, I totally respect that and as previously mentioned, believe we may have a moment in time here where we can 'blow up' both parties and create future face-offs of 'official' liberals versus 'official' conservatives.

For those who choose to sit on the sidelines, you certainly have that right, but just because you have the right to do something, doesn't mean it's the right thing to do.

NewLand

[IllumiNaughtyByNature]

I agree that it is really going to count. NO ONE is going to abandon the military or Irag or Afghanistan. I think that has been proved since the RATS took the senate on that theme and still nada.

I will still be looking a lot farther than the next four years when i vote. Nothing changes quickly in American politics. The only thing that seems to get done quickly are tax rebates and the year senators raises. 4 years in nothing in politics but a lifetime appointed SCOTUS judge can make an impact for decades. I'll pick and chose my battles and I am still not convinced that McCain is any different than Obama. IMO.

[JasonC]

If an unwillingness to buy your koolaid or to consider your hissyfit the height of respectable conservatism is "forcing" you, to anything, then what would a free man disagreeing with you to your face look like?

[jwalsh07]

McCain will beat either.

I'm not a big McCain fan but that's the way I see it.

I predicted McCain would be the nominee over a year ago and I'm predicting now that McCain will be POTUS.

Of course, maybe I was just lucky the first time but if I'm right this time I'll expect an atta boy. :-}

[JasonC]

Support on the war. You pretended McCain wouldn't do anything about Iran without liberal media approval, when if that were true he wouldn't have supported Bush on the war. He has. He did not require your approval, or Rummy's, but he didn't require liberal approval on the matter, either. He simply saw that hawk policies were correct and advocated them. And rather than pocket that support and acknowledge it, you specifically attempt to denigrate him as a hawk by pretending he'd ask for liberal approval to do anything on Iran. Just nonsense, doesn't know the man, doesn't reflect his actions. It is pure spite toward him over other unrelated issues, warping your judgement of the one under discussion.

[Gondring]

It’s simply to weaken their support for Sen. Obama. I’m not saying it will stop him. I don’t think Senators Obama or McCain can be “stopped” in electoral terms during this election cycle. And I doubt that I’ll waste much of my time fighting Sen. Obama when fighting Sen. McCain is likely more effective in supporting conservatism.

That is, a conservative GOP is likely the best way to promote conservatism, and so I’ll push for that. Fighting to get a liberal in office, even if a lesser liberal, simply encourages liberalism. I’d rather fight for another day than sell out the future.

[Will88]

“McCain has been a rock on the war in Iraq without asking anyone’s permission, left media or right. So you are hopelessly wrong, that’s all. Meanspirited, irrational, unfair to him, unwilling to pocket support where you get it, and ignorant.”

Few things are sillier than braying about how strong McCain is on Iraq, then leaping to the conclusion that he’s strong on national security.

The WTC was not in Baghdad or Kabul. In the age of Islamic terrorism, our national security has far more to do with what happens within the US than in any given foreign nation. And, what’s being done to stop the incubation of new terrorists in KSA (home of 15 9/11 terrorists), Egypt (home of Muhammad Atta), Pakistan, Iran, Libya, and other Muslim nations we could all name.

McCain is irresponsible and dangerous on national security because of his idiotic open borders, amnesty for all positions.

One terrorist act committed by folks who crossed our southern border, and even you and John McCain might be able to finally comprehend what national security means in these times.

[Checkers]

“I’m not positive, but I think McCain fought against the larger tax cuts because he wanted spending cuts.”

You are wrong.

[nyconse]

You wrote a very logical post...however, you make an assumption that McCain will behave as a conservative/Repub. I don’t think he will. He will move left. McCain really likes the Dems and all the things you fear will happen under McCain. The GOP can not be expected to fight their own President...The GOP would fight Obama or Clinton.

If McCain was a normal moderate like say Guliani, I would vote for him because everything you say would be true...better than Obama etc. However, this is McCain who has furthered his career stabbing Repubs in the back. Thus your argument fails when one considers McCain’s true character.

[JasonC]

Beautiful, they always come out of the woodwork around post 500 or so. The Pauleans, who think all we have to do about our foreign enemies is run away and leave them alone. Every real conservative knows that is a dangerous pipedream and would be disasterous for the country. You don't, because the attractiveness of a given pipedream is your only political consideration. No matter how you spin it, that will never be conservative.

[DoughtyOne]

Thanks.

[JasonC]

Agreed, that is revisionist spin. At the time, he mouthed leftist redistributionist nonsense on the subject. Not one of his finer hours.

[nyconse]

I can’t see McCain winning period, but I guess we will see in November. My crystal ball isn’t working tonight!

[egginanest]

What part of "he's unfit for office" don't you get?

He's not my ideal candidate either. So what? He is FAR more fit for office than either of the Democrat options.

Do what you will....or won't. But, quit foaming at the mouth about whatever you've decided not to do....and that includes the rest of the Gold Member Conservatives as well.

[DoughtyOne]

You’re pondering issues that I’m sure are swimming around in the heads of just about every conservative these days, and I know those who support McCain are having some of the same thoughts. We’re all quite perplexed with the reality we face this year. As usual, people see different courses of action to minimize the damage. I sure know what you mean. Thanks.

[JasonC]

I can appreciate all of that, honestly, but I think you underestimate the importance of the hawk vs dove issue in the immediate geopolitical context. The country can't afford Obama compared to McCain, squishy as McCain is on real conservative issues, over the next four years. Iran is going to get nuclear weapons in the next presidential term.

[nyconse]

I would give you an atta-boy. I always give credit where credit is due.

[ladyinred]

I am one of those who do not like McCain, but will have to support him over Hillary or Obama. No choice!

[NewLand]

Thus your argument fails when one considers McCain’s true character.

Not when it comes to the defense of our nation.

The GOP can not be expected to fight their own President

Plenty of Repubs have fought against GWB. Thus, your argument fails.