Posted on 12/09/2007 12:49:26 PM PST by aomagrat
Edited on 12/09/2007 12:59:09 PM PST by Admin Moderator. [history]
[I waited 45 seconds and actually posted something substantial--Ed.]
COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo. — At least four people were shot outside of a Colorado Springs church on Sunday, but it was not immediately known whether the shootings were related to an earlier shooting about 70 miles away, authorities said.
Sorry you feel that way.
I know few Christian leaders who would have done tremendously better with him.
However, he was giving off clue after clue after clue that he desperately needed attention they were either unable and/or unwilling to give him or see that he got.
They managed to keep him from going further in the program—wise on their part.
But to some degree, he was a member—a desperately hurting member of their ‘community.’ He slipped through their cracks.
IF 10% of his allegations about their behavior around him have ANY validity at all, they bear some serious responsibility for faililng to walk the talk in front of him and in their relationship with him. That’s quite serious spiritually as well as emotionally and psychologically. Given what happened, the implications are more than a little sobering.
I’m not saying he was an easy one to help—not by a very, very, very long shot.
But my IMPRESSION from all that I’ve read is that they made some healthy occasaional stabs at battering him back into shape—maybe some at loving him back into shape—and whether because of time, energy or lack of skills . . . let it go at that.
This kid was not one who would survive well “let it go at that.” They had every reason to know that. Yet no one appears to have blown a sufficiently loud whistle to even BEGIN to get him the forceful impactful attention he so desperately was crying for, even demanding more or less as well as he knew how—especially in earlier years.
IN later years, he seemed to be growingly transitioning to merely and totally and only the OUTRAGED REBEL. It would have taken several miracles to have impacted him then.
But these were folks who believed in miracles. How many fasted and prayed how long for him? I’m skeptical any but I hope I’m wrong.
There have been numerous accusations of this. But when I look back through this forum I find that 100% of the occurrences of this delusional accusation comes from a single source - yourself.
I can't figure you out. Sometimes you seem rational and logical. And then other times you make the most highly offensive, completely unsupported accusations towards people you know virtually zilch about. Is there some Jekyll & Hyde thingy here, that I should know about? Eg, morning vs night, or pre-coffee vs post-coffee?
Yes and no.
Yes, making good parenting choices helps the teen years go smoothly.
But no, that is no guarantee of smooth sailing.
I have seen far too many families, where all the kids were given pretty much the same upbringing by the parents, yet the amount of rebellion ranged from almost non-existent to off-the-charts.
There have been numerous accusations of this. But when I look back through this forum I find that 100% of the occurrences of this delusional accusation comes from a single source - yourself.
I can’t figure you out. Sometimes you seem rational and logical. And then other times you make the most highly offensive, completely unsupported accusations towards people you know virtually zilch about. Is there some Jekyll & Hyde thingy here, that I should know about? Eg, morning vs night, or pre-coffee vs post-coffee?
= = =
I’ll try and go back and dig it out of his writings. Perhaps someone will beat me to it.
Jekyll/Hyde . . . I don’t pretend to be free of my sin-nature per se. But I don’t believe what you describe is operating. Others are better judges of that.
Those closest to me over the years—including colleagues—have characterized me as the kindEST or one of the kindEST persons they’ve ever met. They also very humblingly characterize my discernment and perceptiveness about people to be similarly at the top of those they’ve known.
One of my most brilliant supervisors in my PhD program asserted in our group supervision meeting once that I took a few weeks to get as far as he got in 6-9 months with clients.
I’m also known as someone who can take a photo that shows well a person’s eyes and 80-97% of the time give a fairly accurate personality summary including major strengths and weaknesses.
All that to say—I don’t really have a lot of apologies about the skills God has fiery-furnace burned into and hammered into me and led me into.
Are those skills and perceptiveness-es flawless or flawlessly applied—certainly not. But they typically are characterized by others who should know as being markedly above average.
In terms of the evidence for my allegations . . . conjectures, hypotheses . . . the evidence is vividly in his writings. I’ll try and dig it out. But that’s mucking about muck that’s not at all very attractive, to me.
It’s much more my style to make the relevant points and try and point folks to learning principles that they can better apply in their lives.
I have seen far too many families, where all the kids were given pretty much the same upbringing by the parents, yet the amount of rebellion ranged from almost non-existent to off-the-charts.
= = =
KIDS DO NOT NEED THE ****SAME**** treatment. The NEED whatever that individual NEEDS.
I have NEVER observed a teen who as a 1-8 year old was bonded well with by an emotionally conencted balanced lovingly healthily affectionate father who grew up to be a rebellious teen. NEVER.
That would probably be over . . . a guesstimated 5,000 plus families I’ve had rather direct observations/info about.
It’s much more my style to make the relevant points and try and point folks to learning principles that they can better apply in their lives.
. . .
I’ve found that folks who are eager for growth are very quick and able to get the meat and spit out the bones from whatever I offer.
And folks who balk, kick up a fuss, rationalize 12 ways to Sunday . . . are unlikely to be persuaded by a 12 foot high stack of solid research and other “proof.”
You know....Jesus is the best friend and counselor that anyone could have ever had. Judas Iscariot had both Friend and Counselor right there, available to him.
Yet, we do not blame Christ for Judas’ choices. They were of his own. And if Christ “couldn’t” break through satan’s hold on Judas, how much less can a human parent?
One can lead a horse to water....
Then you haven't paid close attention. I have read extensively from his writings, ever since the moment I was the first Freeper to discover and post (#1983) MM's online identity on the ex-Pentecostal forum. Furthermore, I have quoted from his writings on multiple occasions, especially when debating certain points with other Freepers (post 2379, for eg).
Whereas you have repeatedly been asked to provide evidence to support your repeated assertions of childhood abuse, repeated claims of there being incestual components to this mother-son relationship, and so on.
But you wave this all off, excusing your inability or unwillingness to provide evidence with: Hey man, that's not my style!
It looks like I'm not the only one here who is less than impressed with your Shoot From The Hip And Don't Back Up Any Of Your Claims "style".
And don't think about old dogs & new tricks. You're never too old to revise your "style". Go ahead, pleasantly surprise us, and perhaps yourself, and try quoting from MM's writings to back up your points.
If you don't, you will find fewer and fewer people here willing to engage you, except of course those who already agree with you. But don't be content with just that. Make the effort.
I'm guessing from your age, that you took most of your Psych courses back in the days when Freud was God of the Psychoanalysis Universe, and every word dripping from his pen was considered Holy Scripture.
Perhaps you're not aware that since those days, much of his Holy Writ has been debunked.
In particular, this alleged mother/son, emotionally-incestual, Oedipus-Complex issue.
As far back as 1974, I remember Anthro professors proudly relating how field anthropologists were responsible for blowing up a number of Freud's most cherished Commandments.
The fabled Oedipus Complex was one of these. Pre-Freud, most people likely assumed that teenaged boys' rebelliousness against their fathers was due to the father being the head disciplinarian in the home.
Enter Sigmund Freud. Most human problems were now redefined as being sex-related. According to Freud, boys rebelled against their dads because boys naturally long to have a sexual relationship with their moms, and are therefore jealous of their dads for this reason .
What most people didn't know was that Freud himself had an Oedipal Complex (and that it's actually pretty rare), and that Freud, assuming that everything about himself was "normal" and "average," decreed that every other male had this same sexual hangup. (Anyone who said they didn't was no doubt in denial, and the sexual hangups they got from living in repressive Victorian cultures were blinding them to the truths about themselves). And so generations of psychotherapists tried to force this Holy Writ down the throats of their confused male patients.
What made it hard to disprove Freud was that in most known cultures, dads were BOTH the mother's sexual partner AND the chief lawgiver/enforcer in the family.
Enter the anthropologists. Long after Freud was gone, they discovered a culture in some remote place where the two roles of "law enforcer" and "sleeps with mom" were split among different men. In this culture, instead of brides leaving home to live with their husbands, they never left. Boys were raised in mothers' childhood home, with the mothers' eldest brothers being the chief lawgivers/enforcers. The boys' fathers lived apart, but visited for conjugal purposes and to hang out a bit with their kids.
While researching this unique culture, the anthropologists found out that the boys mostly rebelled against their UNCLES, but had great friendships with their fathers. So obviously it was discipline they rebelled against and not sexual jealousy towards their parents.
Whoops! Another of the biggest pillars in the Temple Of Freud just crumbled!
I really didn't want to get off on this much of a tangent. The only reason I brought all this up is that I suspect your fixation on "emotional incest" between MM and his mother might be mostly due to the era in which you studied Psych.
No, I won't gloat over your state of childlessness.
But it does cast a new light for me onto your postings. Someone like you, with years of counseling teens, no doubt has gleaned a lot of insight into the minds of teenagers.
But OTOH, I would like you to consider asking yourself this: Could your lack of experience of being a parent of a teen possibly color your views of the teen-parent relationship, weighing it too heavily towards the teen's point of view?
I'm sure that any tendency to take a teen's word against his parent is highly useful, especially when the teen needs a sympathetic ear to listen to him. Just having someone to listen to everything you say and automatically accept it as unvarnished truth, can no doubt be very helpful in many situations. (Though I can't help but wonder if it's the best thing in ALL situations?)
But from what I can see, a tendency such as this can make your posts here much less useful to many of us, because of what appears to some of us to be an unreasonable bias against MM's mother, with all kinds of unsupported accusations being leveled against her, many approaching the level of libel. (in my opinion).
OK, it's a deal! I'll scale back my unreasonable demand for 12.0 feet (3657.6 mm) of evidence to instead just one single piece of evidence from MM's writings that his mother is guilty of child abuse (but only do so if it doesn't violate your style).
I knew you would be able to state with much more clarity what I was seeing myself! Thank you, Quix! :)
I hate to intrude on this exchange, but I have seen what might be considered as black sheeps of the family. In a particular case, when junior high hit, the child completely changed....into a rebellious, mean spirited teen, who chose the wrong crowd to hang around, and at a 20+, still making self-destructive decisions. It's so sad, because the family did everything they could think of to help provide resources, and tons of choices to to that particular child...it didn't help her save her from herself. However, it's a choice the child is making. A lot of teens make poor choices..learn from them and grow out of it. Parents can only do so much, before they have to turn it all over to God, pray for the best for all...and attempt to feel peace..under the circumstances.
I like to refer to proverbs...the one that says, (paraphrased) train a child the way they should go, and when they are an adult, they will not stray from it. ( can't remember the exact verse.
Some kids choose to remain on the wrong path....and have to hit bottom numerous times before they get back on path..if ever.
proverbs: They will not depart from it, I think.
I will affirm this, Quix... My eldest daughter (who just turned 16) and I don’t always see eye to eye (does any child and parent???). HOWEVER, our relationship is lightyears away from the rebellion, anger, wrath, rage, malice, and craziness, etc... that marked the relationship between my father and I at her age.
In counseling when I was a young adult (19-23), repeatedly the same thing kept coming to the forefront in my mind and was at the bottom of a host of problems — “WHY DIDN’T HE LOVE ME”. My father would say, “But I worked hard to give you this nice house, 2 cars, etc.. etc..” (I lived in an upper-middle class area and didn’t go without any MATERIAL needs). I recall saying to him one day literally, “I don’t care about any of that stuff, I could care less. We could live in a slum for all I care. All I’ve ever wanted was your love...”.
So yes, I would have to say your analysis fits in perfectly with my experiences.
That is one thing I am so grateful of... My children, indeed my family, have had our fair share of problems through their childhood (my being assaulted, losing our home, etc.. etc..) however, they have had one constant that I never had — they KNOW that their Dad and I love them unconditionally... And, THAT, has made all the difference in the world as to how they have handled some of the harder parts of our lives thus far... I thank the L-rd for that.
Oh, and my daughter just showed up and read this... And she agrees, too! ;)
Just wanted to say that I know the abuse I suffered, vs. the way we have raised our children probably has a lot to do with the difference in the relationship between parent and child in our household as well... I do realize that perhaps it’s not quite fair to compare the two in light of the fact that my children were not abused as I was... However, I still think there is a basis for what you’ve said Quix. Not all children rebel due to outright abuse — but ALL will rebel (IMO) if they don’t know love...
I’m glad you posted that. I was thinking about that verse and hoping the parents can get peace from it. Until proven otherwise I will not take the rantings of a possible, psychotic killer as reality. If these were good people that did the best they could, they don’t deserve this. That had no obligation to raise their children by any standards but the Lord’s.
Very good points! Thank you for reminding us of that. I honestly think this guy was dabbling in things that are way beyond the realm of a human parent to prevent at this point... Just my opinion of course, but I don’t want to see his family solely blamed for the actions of an ADULT. Is it important to understand how his past could’ve influenced his future? Of course, however, to then lay the blame at the feet of his parents makes him into a victim — like he had no choices of his own... I don’t think that’s a fair analysis. After all, there are many of us who have lived through abuse and do NOT turn out to be mass murderers... So, at some point one has to realize that he was solely responsible for his actions — his reactions — to those around him.
Kim, I too have seen things like you suggest. However, one must not discount that perhaps this child experienced things that the parents did not know about that were influencing her actions. I would never be one to say that it is always the fault of the parents that a child rebels, or makes self-destructive decisions. However, in my experience, one sometimes finds out years later that something happened to cause this change — not always within their family unit. Just wanted to throw that out there... :)
I was not treated right, at all, growing up (actually, that’s not quite right...after my mother’s death, I was not treated right, and, quite frankly, I would call it abusive). And it didn’t stop there, but that’s another story.
In any event, I had choices before me, as does everyone else. I chose to follow the Lord, and He counseled me on how to best deal with the abuse I received at home....and then later.
And those good points came from the Lord during one of His own “counseling sessions” with me. I had become very good at blaming myself for things (all things) over which I either had no control or only part control. And the Lord prompted me to think about Judas and the Lord, his friend. The best of all kinds of friends couldn’t reach Judas. And Jesus was not to blame for that AT ALL. I realized then, the most I could blame myself in any relationship is 50%, tops, not 100%, as I had been.
And, there you have it, friend. : )
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