Let's not read too much into the fate of ‘Alexander’(Hilarious Movie Review!)

JEWISH WORLD REVIEW ^ | DECEMBER 4, 2004 | JAMES LILEKS

[CHARLITE]

The failure of "Alexander," the newspaper wrote, has "brutally exposed the cultural and moral divide which slices America in two."

Uh-huh. "It is being suggested that a film about a global warrior with dyed blond hair and waxed legs was never going to conquer an America fresh out of a presidential election in which gay rights became a major issue."

Is there another America they might be talking about? Major issue? Brutally exposed? The last thing an American movie brutally exposed was Kathy Bates in the hot-tub scene of "About Schmidt."

[Nachoman]

Alexander the gay just doesn't sound right.

[Beckwith]

There is good news here.

It will be far more difficult for Oliver Stoned to raise money for future projects. So expect to see less of his wacky view of the world.

[coydog]

Which is why Asian cinema and anime (for the younger crowd) are eating their lunch these days.

[Caipirabob]

Keep in mind that Brad Pitt's "Troy" didn't exactly lead to Sparta Fever sweeping the nation, either.

So true, I recall Brad Pitt promising that "We'd have everyone wearing skirts by this summer."

Anyone see Mr. Pitt lately? Didn't think so.

[Gondring]

Macedonia & Greek one and the same.

Uh, no, sorry...but thanks for playing! :-)

[apro]

"Uh, no, sorry...but thanks for playing! :-)"

Yes they are. Check out some of the ancient artifacts found in Macedonia, Greece:

Gold ring with the incised Greek inscription "DOROV" in Greek alphabet. From Sindos in Thessaloniki. It is dated to the second quarter of the 5th century B.C.
http://alexander.macedonia.culture.gr/2/21/211/21116/21116ek/00/ring.jpg

Sherd of a kylix with an incised inscription in Greek. It is dated to the third quarter of the 6th century B.C. from Sani in Greece.
http://alexander.macedonia.culture.gr/2/21/211/21116/21116ek/00/ostr.jpg

Here is a boundary settlement from 357-350 B.C. between villages and cities of a hilly Macedonian district enforced on the 'waring' local population after the intervening of King Philip II. The border of neighbouring places are defined with reference to rivers, hills, pavements, roads, sanctuaries and private fields. It is written in Greek for the local population. If as some theorize, that the locals and non-royal Macedonians did not speak Greek in those days, then this official document would not be in Greek.
http://alexander.macedonia.culture.gr/2/21/211/21116/21116ek/00/basilika.jpg

[Gondring]

Well, without refighting the Macedonian independence movement (BTW, I'm a totally independent observer with no interest in either side's view), let's look at the time in question...Alexander's time, and his father's.

Philip II (Alexander's father) was Philip of Macedon. If he was Greek, why did he "conquer Greece" and raze all "Greek cities" that were in Macedonia? The fact is, Philip II was Macedonian, was King of Macedon, and did not consider himself "Greater Greek" or anything like that. When Alexander campaigned, his army had 4 times as many Macedonians as Greeks in it.

Finding artifacts with certain language markers does not mean the peoples were the same, or considered themselves to be such. And that was the point of the original comments made.

[apro]

I agree, this should be based on facts and what is known from history and not ‘refighting’.

Philip II and his Royal Family considered themselves descendants of the famous Greek hero Hercules, who was Dorian. An inscription of this is found in the Royal House of the Macedonians, written in Doric. They spoke the Greek dialect of Doric. Yes he was known as Philip of Macedonia but people back then were known in those terms, for instance King Alexander of Epirus was known as Alexander of Epirus. A Spartan in Athens would be considered just as much as a foreigner as a Macedonian in Athens. The same would apply for an Athenian in Epirus or Thessaly. That did not mean they were not all Hellenic.

They all shared a common culture in the sense that they were descendants of the various different Greek tribes that existed back then. They all shared the same culture, spoke Greek dialects, and worshiped the same Gods.

Philip didn't 'conquer Greece' since there was no “Greece” to conquer back then, at least not in the modern geographical political terms one associates it with now. What he did was unite the different city states that were at war with each other since their existence. That was not something new originating with Philip. This was an idea that the Athenians as well as the Spartans and other Greek states were dreaming about for thousands of years...hence all the internal fighting between them. Each one wanted to emerge as the dominating state. Also there were Athenians who supported Philip in uniting the Hellenic States in a war against the Persians. One of these was Athenian Isokratis who died before seeing his dream become a reality. The majority of his troops might have been made up of Macedonians but there was also a great amount of Greeks with his court.

As for the artifacts, those were just a few examples with pictures on the internet. All Macedonian names and toponyms, and archaeological evidence is in Greek., gives prudence that they were a Greek culture more than not.

[freedumb2003]

"Pull out Striker, Pull out!!"

[Jimmy Valentine]

Oh no! we are over "Macho Grande" again!!!

"Have you ever been in a Turkish prison Robbie?"

Yikes,

[okie01]

Aside from the fact "Troy" stood Homer on his ear- Menelaus dies in the movie, survived in the book, Achilles died before the Trojan Horse, not after, Ajax survived the siege-died shortly afterwords, Agamemnon was killed by his wife when he got home, not by some Trojan chiquita in the smoldering ruins,aside from the fact that Brad Pitt confused the Homerian description of Achilles "sulking" for the Achaen Greek word for "pouting", and despite the fact that the Greeks at Troy did not engage in hoplite/phalanx warfare, and that Homer's siege lasted ten years, not ten days- it wasn't bad.

The Iliad survives as a recognized classic for millenia.

But, somehow, the story isn't good enough for Hollywood...

Betcha The Iliad still goes on to outlast "Troy".

[okie01]

In short, Stone is a twit. The movie deserves to die an inglorious death.

It will be pulled from distribution and interred shortly. Last word was that Alexander was grossing $144/day per screen.

And trending down...

[Gondring]

Welcome to FR. I checked your other threads and see that you're a Greek apologist, and as I said, I am not really interested in the debate in the terms you're proposing. My point is simply that "Macedonian" was a distinct description from "Greek"--and your comments* confirm what I said. Ergo, we agree.

*E.g., "The majority of his troops might have been made up of Macedonians but there was also a great amount (sic) of Greeks with his court."

[Gondring]

Betcha The Iliad still goes on to outlast "Troy".

Except with the teenage girl demographic... :-)

[apro]

Then your not reading my comments right for if you were you would see we do not agree.

*E.g., "The majority of his troops might have been made up of Macedonians but there was also a great amount (sic) of Greeks with his court."

By "Greeks" I meant other Greeks and all this is a mute point since Macedonians were Greeks to begin with.

As for being "a Greek apologist" wrong again. Just stating historic facts that have been proven so far, unlike the other side which bases most of its claims on theories and assumptions. For instance, we hear about this ancient Macedonian language that existed during Philips and Alexanders time; well if it existed and spoken in the 4th century BC by Philip, Alexander and the rest of Macedonia then were is it? I quite doubt that Alexander would wipe his "native tongue" off the face of the earth just so he can spread the language/culture of the people he conquered, the Greeks.

Thanks for the welcome.