Posted on 04/11/2004 6:50:11 PM PDT by WoofDog123
The ancient split between the English and Scots is older than previously thought, an Oxford don said today.
Traditionally the difference between the English and Scots, Welsh, Irish and Cornish was attributed to the foreign influence of invading forces such as the Anglo-Saxons, Celts and Vikings settling in different areas of Britain hundreds of years ago.
But Professor Stephen Oppenheimer of Oxford University, believes the difference originates much further back in history.
In a book tracing humankind from its origins in Africa 80,000 years ago, Prof Oppenheimer develops a theory of the original inhabitants of Britain.
The professor of clinical sociomedical sciences at Oxford University said the Celts of Western Scotland, Wales, Ireland and Cornwall are descended from an ancient people living on the Atlantic coast while Britain was still attached to mainland Europe, while the English are more closely related to the Germanic peoples of the interior.
As evidence he cites genetic data showing the Celts are more closely related to the Basque people of south west France and the Celts of Brittany and Spain, while the English are closer to the Germans descended from the Anglo Saxons.
In the past the split was attributed to “migration, invasion and replacement”, but Prof Oppenheimer said the difference was established long before Britain was even an island.
He said: “The first line between England and the Celts was put down at a much earlier period, say 10,000 years ago.”
The professor, who is speaking at the Edinburgh Science Festival tonight, said Britons are descended from the original settlers, rather than later invasions, and as such were already split by the western divide.
He said: “The English are the odd-ones-out because they are the ones more linked to continental Europe.
“The Scots, the Irish, the Welsh and the Cornish are all very similar in their genetic pattern to the Basque.”
However, the professor did say later invasions will have influenced the developing cultures in different areas of Britain.
He said: “The people themselves may have been more conservative about their movement but accepted new cultures coming in at different dates.”
The revelations are all part of Prof Oppenheimer’s controversial theory, expanded in his book The Real Eve: Modern Man’s Journey Out of Africa, that humans migrated from Africa and populated the planet.
The professor will speak about his theory in a talk entitled Out of Eden at the Apex International Hotel in the Grassmarket tonight
ROFL! My wife has this on a sweatshirt we got in Canada 10-12 years ago and it's still her favorite.
As for the Celts-as-Basques thing, when one considers the great antiquity of the "tin route" (the trade route out of the central Mediterranean, around/stopping off in Iberia, and ending in Cornwall and vicinity) it seems fairly reasonable.
That said, I think more DNA testing and statistical analysis is required.
I didn't know this - can you point me to a source about it online?
WoofDog123 wrote: What about any of this (besides basque-celtic genetic link) is a surprise at all? Obviously the celts would be genetically related to each other (brittany received its current celts from wales and cornwall celts running from anglo-saxons, etc).The Celtiberians occupied Iberia -- it was the hybrid of Celtic migration and the earlier Iberian settlers. Basque is an isolated language family, but probably has some loan words as do almost all languages.
WoofDog123 wrote: I would think genetic studies could clear this up once and for all in the east and northeast of scotland.Genetic studies can't tell anything much about culture or language, or even geographic origins.
xkaydet65 wrote: So complete was the Anglo Saxon triumph that some say there is not a place in England that bears a Celtic name, nor a word in English that remains from the Gaelic of the Celts. Is it so hard to believe that the descendants of these invaders would dominate the land genetically."Galore" as in "to repletion" came directly from Scots Gaelic, and unlike other modifiers in English, properly appears after the word modified. So the grammar came with it. Although not commonly used (because it's archaic, as is the word form "youse", which some folks occasionally use today; that one is straight out of Saxon times), we also have "bairn" and others. Not a ton of others, but they are there. Scots Gaelic is more widely spoken in daily use than Irish Gaelic (its closest relative).
WoofDog123 wrote: There are like a whopping 2 or 3 loanwords surviving into modern english. Crag is one, i think but am not sure tor is another.
The sleeping civ has awaken and is treating us to posts galore.
There must be an ancient gaelic fairy tale about this sort of thing.
The Old High German and Old English word for hair is haar, my mother still uses it, she's 87.
ValerieUSA The sleeping civ has awaken and is treating us to posts galore. There must be an ancient gaelic fairy tale about this sort of thing.I'm no longer so large that no house can hold me nor ship carry me. Still got the gloves Conan gave me for Beltane though.
blam The Old High German and Old English word for hair is haar, my mother still uses it, she's 87.Check out the origins of various meats (beef, mutton, lamb, etc) for a fun time. :')
"There are like a whopping 2 or 3 loanwords surviving into modern english. Crag is one, i think but am not sure tor is another."
Hi, the above was in reference to the p-celtic being spoken in britain by the romano-celtic people being displaced/absorbed by the A-S migration/invasion into what would be england...as far as I know very few words other than place-names form p-celtic were absorbed into the invader's dialects of west germanic.
I wasn't aware of the q-celtic loanwords introduced from scots gaelic, is there knowledge of when these words started appearing in written english (middle or modern?)
'WoofDog123 wrote: I would think genetic studies could clear this up once and for all in the east and northeast of scotland.'
"Genetic studies can't tell anything much about culture or language, or even geographic origins."
This was in reference to where the picts language family might have originated. My point was the looking for any genetic correspondence between scots living in formerly pictish areas and the DNA markers common among populations of finno-ugric language speakers here might tend to support or dismiss the remote suggestion that pictish was a F-Ugric language. Obviously the main problem here is that aside from some king-names, place-name remnants, there is to my knowledge no remaining samples of pictish extant to verify it as a p-celtic or not.
The idea (one that is being applied all over the place) is the, in the context of known or suggested historical circumstances, genetic studies and comparison can have a tendency to support or make implausible certain theories.
"Not a ton of others, but they are there. Scots Gaelic is more widely spoken in daily use than Irish Gaelic (its closest relative)."
From what I have seen first-hand in the heart of scots gaelic country, I would be very somewhat surprised if these languages are house-spoken at all in 2 generations. Unlike Welsh, the critical mass and emphasis doesn't seem to be there.
I'm calling for 30%! But thanks for the ping!
To the degree Old West Gothics (the English) share a genetic background with the Norse (Old North Gothics), it's certain to be discovered in Scotland.
As far as Finno-Ugric ancestors among them, you need look no further than the appearance of Saami in Norway who were just then making a serious appearance in what was to them "the deep Souf'".
Obviously the main problem here is that aside from some king-names, place-name remnants, there is to my knowledge no remaining samples of pictish extant to verify it as a p-celtic or not.That's a problem for any connection between whatever it was the Picts spoke and any known language family.
Ask A Linguist For July 1998 - September 1998I believe it is accepted by all specialists that the (sparse) Pictish inscriptions represent a Celtic language... [T]he only Pictish specialist I have talked to (Katherine Forsyth) is satisfied that all the inscriptions in fact represent a single Celtic language.
Re: Language of the Picts
Larry TraskGlossemata Genealogicæ.Ogham inscriptions : [600 bc] primitive inscriptions of the old Q-Celt (600 bc) or the newer P-Celt (400 bc) that survive in the British Isles. We have a total of approximately 375 Ogham inscriptions. Ireland has some 316 Ogham inscriptions, Wales has 40 inscriptions, and the Isle of Man has 10 inscriptions. One inscription survived at Silchester in southern England, and a few Pictish Ogham inscriptions have been found in Scotland, as far north as the Shetland Islands. Ogham script often runs upward, in a vertical manner, for it was originally written as notches on wooden staves.Oghams : cypher alphabets; vestiges of the Celtic Ogham alphabet that are sometimes characterized by their appearance or the place of their discovery. The categories in the Book of Ballymote include the wheel Ogham, bird Ogham, pig Ogham, and color Ogham, as well as Oghams of the tree, hill, church, castle, fruit. Cf. cypher alphabets.
The Alphabetary Heraldic:
Genealogical Glossary:
Ogham alphabet:
Goidelic alphabet. Cf. alphabet
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