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Fossils Bridge Gap in African Mammal Evolution
Reuters to My Yahoo! ^ | Wed Dec 3, 2003 | Patricia Reaney

Posted on 12/03/2003 4:53:26 PM PST by Pharmboy

LONDON (Reuters) - Fossils discovered in Ethiopia's highlands are a missing piece in the puzzle of how African mammals evolved, a team of international scientists said on Wednesday.

Little is known about what happened to mammals between 24 million to 32 million years ago, when Africa and Arabia were still joined together in a single continent.

But the remains of ancestors of modern-day elephants and other animals, unearthed by the team of U.S. and Ethiopian scientists 27 million years on, provide some answers.

"We show that some of these very primitive forms continue to live through the missing years, and then during that period as well, some new forms evolved -- these would be the ancestors of modern elephants," said Dr John Kappelman, who headed the team.

The find included several types of proboscideans, distant relatives of elephants, and fossils from the arsinoithere, a rhinoceros-like creature that had two huge bony horns on its snout and was about 7 feet high at the shoulder.

"It continues to amaze me that we don't have more from this interval of time. We are talking about an enormous continent," said Kappelman, who is based at the University of Texas at Austin.

Scientists had thought arsinoithere had disappeared much earlier but the discovery showed it managed to survive through the missing years. The fossils from the new species found in Ethiopia are the largest, and at 27 million years old, the youngest discovered so far.

"If this animal was still alive today it would be the central attraction at the zoo," Tab Rasmussen, a paleontologist at Washington University in St Louis, Missouri who worked on the project, said in a statement.

Many of the major fossil finds in Ethiopia are from the Rift Valley. But Kappelman and colleagues in the United States and at Ethiopia's National Science Foundation (news - web sites) and Addis Ababa University concentrated on a different area in the northwestern part of the country.

Using high-resolution satellite images to scour a remote area where others had not looked before, his team found the remains in sedimentary rocks about 6,600 feet above sea level.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Extended News; Miscellaneous; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: africa; archaeology; crevolist; evolution; ggg; godsgravesglyphs; history; links; mammals; multiregionalism; neandertal
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To: cookcounty
The point is that the vast preponderance of people in this field are easily taken in, whether by very crude hoaxes or by sloppy "science."

Not true. It wasn't easy at all. While granted that no one suspected (or at least openly suggested) fraud, the fact is that the "preponderance" of anthropologists concluded that Piltdown was not a single creature, but a chance association of a human skull and ape jaw. The hoaxer had to engineer a second find (Piltdown II) to quell the critics.

The follow-on to Piltdown is Hesperopithecus, in which a dim-witted goofball named Osborne, who ran the presigious Museum of Natural History in New York, lifted a pig's tooth to the light and testified in rapturous tones that it was obviously a hominid fossil.

Actually I don't think either Osborne or any of the Americans ever claimed it was a hominid (in the human family). They claimed it was a hominoid, specifically an anthropoid ape. It was an Englishman, Elliot Grafton Smith, IIRC, who elevated Hesperopithecus to human ancestry, in text accompanying that picture in the Illustrated London News that all the creationists reproduce (and which Osborne immediately dismissed as unscientific fantasy).

The claim that an ape had been found in the Americas was extraordinary enough in itself. Whatever you may choose to believe about the credulity of scientists, the fact is that there was no way in the world such a claim would ever achieved general acceptance on the basis of a single worn and eroded tooth. Further evidence was necessary, and when the researchers at the American Museum sought it out they uncovered their own error.

221 posted on 12/04/2003 10:29:45 AM PST by Stultis
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To: Tares
How can one apply material evidence to a supernatural event?

The basis for the event may be supernatural, but the event itself (the Ark, the flood) should have material evidence, if they did occur.

This inability to prove a supernatural event with material evidence is not, however, proof that the event is a myth that did not occur.

You're the one claiming these events occurred. I'm simply asking for proof.

222 posted on 12/04/2003 10:32:36 AM PST by Modernman (I am Evil Homer, I am Evil Homer....)
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To: Just mythoughts
Order requires "control" and "control" requires a "controller".

Neither of your assertions has been demonstrated.

223 posted on 12/04/2003 10:33:12 AM PST by Doctor Stochastic (Vegetabilisch = chaotisch is der Charakter der Modernen. - Friedrich Schlegel)
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To: Junior
Empirical evidence can be validated by more than one disinterested observer. In other words, empirical evidence will appear the same regardless of the attitudes of the observer.

Is the existence of observers other than oneself empirically demonstrable, or is it an article of faith?

224 posted on 12/04/2003 10:34:54 AM PST by Tares
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To: Ichneumon; Leonine; cyborg
Stay on topic. Stay on Earth. We weren't talking about Mars here. This is a comparative biology discussion. While your pictures are nice and certainly out of this world, they are also outside of this discussion and hence, are irrelevant.

I know it must be uncomfortable for evolutionists to face their frauds. Face them you must, however. Intellectual honesty demands it.

As anyone who has acheived any rudimentary accomplishment in the field of biological study knows -- whether they be evolutionists or creationists -- Haekel purposefully and fraudulently used the same woodcut to represent cross-species embryos in his work, Natural History of Creation (Naturliche Schopfungsgeschichte)(1868). This was no innocent mistake on his part. Haekel's fraud was outted by Rutimeyer, a contemporary professor of zoology at University of Basel.

Haekel was called on his fraud then and there, his factual misreprsentation was exposed, and Haekel shortly afterword as much as admitted to the purposefulness of his mis-representation. Most evolutionists today do not defend Haekel's obvious fraud, and recognize it for what it was. You needn't feel compelled to run Martian interference on your own for him, and you can still be a practicing evolutionist, if you like. Haekel has simply done you a scientific dis-service.

The Haekel fraud exposure, if it is nothing else, is really quite instructive. Sadly, wedded as they are more to a premise than they are to examining scientific evidence -- particularly readily observable evidence that debunks their premise, or the abyssmal lack of evidence to support their premise (the facts be damned; premise uber alles!), the honest debate of scientific observations still continues to be for many evolutionists, a very difficult thing.

225 posted on 12/04/2003 10:35:09 AM PST by Agamemnon
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To: Piltdown_Woman
Well, there was the Cardiff Giant hoax...

Yeah, but wouldn't that have been a creationist (biblical inerrantist) hoax? "There were giants in the earth in those days."

226 posted on 12/04/2003 10:35:28 AM PST by Stultis
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To: Just mythoughts
Even if there were only a few thousand transitional "apes"/"humans at the time of the dinosaurs then we would find at least a 100 fully intact skeletons

Humans did not co-exist with dinosaurs and neither did apes or any other primates, to my knowledge.

Now the dinosaurs were wiped out and it was not evolution that did it and if they were wiped out then the evolving "MAN" was wiped out as well. Everything had to start over from scratch

Huh? Not everything was wiped out when the big rock hit. There were no even remotely human mammals around at the time.

227 posted on 12/04/2003 10:36:07 AM PST by Modernman (I am Evil Homer, I am Evil Homer....)
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To: Agamemnon
I know it must be uncomfortable for evolutionists to face their frauds. Face them you must, however. Intellectual honesty demands it.

Agreed. Now if only you'd agree with the same statement, substituting "evolutionists" with "creationists," we can get somewhere.
228 posted on 12/04/2003 10:42:31 AM PST by whattajoke (Neutiquam erro.)
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To: Modernman
...but the event itself (the Ark, the flood) should have material evidence, if they did occur.

Perhaps. But since natural laws were not in operation when the events occured, why do you assume the material evidence has to conform to natural law, and that evidence of the event is thus amenable to investigation by scientific means? Uniformity of physical laws does not apply, by definition.

229 posted on 12/04/2003 10:43:38 AM PST by Tares
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To: Just mythoughts
There should be billions of skeletons, all in tact showing that transition. YET THERE IS NOT ONE FULL SKELETAL REMAINS. [snip] They should be a dime a dozen.

Every year many thousands of gnus are killed in their annual migration. Over the last hundred years, that's millions of gnu skeletons. Over the last 10,000 or 100,000 years, that's billions! We should be hip deep over the entire planet with gnu skeletons!!

But I've never seen a gnu skeleton!!! Have you!! Obviously the whole gnu population is a hoax!!!!

230 posted on 12/04/2003 10:44:44 AM PST by balrog666 (Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.)
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To: Doctor Stochastic
Doctor, if one is going to claim "evolution" then there can be no order.

Order of any kind does not just happen.

Now to have "species" of kind after kind requires ORDER.

Nature requires ORDER.
231 posted on 12/04/2003 10:46:57 AM PST by Just mythoughts
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To: Stultis; Piltdown_Woman
Well, there was the Cardiff Giant hoax...

Yeah, but wouldn't that have been a creationist (biblical inerrantist) hoax? "There were giants in the earth in those days."

In the absense of knowledge, project your intellectual weaknesses if feel you must.

It still doesn't change the fact that an evolutionist's hoax is an evolutionist's problem.

It cuts straight to your credibity, and the basic intellectual dishonesty, which characterizes so much of the evolution-driven thought processes of otherwise seemingly intellegent persons.

232 posted on 12/04/2003 10:47:03 AM PST by Agamemnon
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To: Agamemnon
I know it must be uncomfortable for evolutionists to face their frauds.

Uh, who here is denying, defending or excusing any fraud? Piltdown was a fraud (hoax), Haekel's embryos were fraudulent (willful distortion), and there are others that no one will deny. None of this excuses representing things that were not fraudulent (e.g. Hesperopithecus, Ramapithecus) as though they were. This is what is being responded to. Calling things "frauds" which are not fraudulent is as intellectually dishonest (and as damaging to truth) as excusing fraud.

You ought not adopt the high horse attitude while muddying the issue yourself.

233 posted on 12/04/2003 10:48:05 AM PST by Stultis
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To: Just mythoughts
More assertions that have not been proven.
234 posted on 12/04/2003 10:51:03 AM PST by Doctor Stochastic (Vegetabilisch = chaotisch is der Charakter der Modernen. - Friedrich Schlegel)
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To: Tares
You know, the whole "is reality real" thing was decent for picking up girls in college (it made them think you were deep), but it doesn't cut the mustard in the real world.
235 posted on 12/04/2003 10:52:03 AM PST by Junior ("Brillig and the Slithy Toves" would be a great name for a band.)
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To: Just mythoughts
Wait just a minute, you tell a tale with no evidence of a "transition" from "ape" to "human". Where are your "bones"? I don't mean a jawbone of a "donkey", or pieces of what appears to be from a skull. Now whole dinosaurs have been found and if "transition" is a fact, there should be "HEAPS" of skeletal remains for all those millions of years of transitioning.

That you completely ignore all of the evidence of transitional fossils dug up through the years does not negate their existence.

The E's preach their belief without "BONES" and you dare to demand me to give you "evidence" of a "spirit" body, which by definition means one in the flesh cannot see into that dimension.

The difference here is that you're just ignoring presented evidence -- pretending that it isn't there without even actually debunking it. I, however, haven't even seen a credible attempt to provide evidence for a "spirit".
236 posted on 12/04/2003 10:52:51 AM PST by Dimensio (The only thing you feel when you take a human life is recoil. -- Frank "Earl" Jones)
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To: Agamemnon
Oh, geez, don't be so officious as to be ridiculous! The Cardiff Giant was a cheap publicity stunt, not some nefarious plot to undermine science. It's a perfectly appropriate foil for a joke or two. Have some perspective.
237 posted on 12/04/2003 10:53:12 AM PST by Stultis
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To: Tares
But since natural laws were not in operation when the events occured

This is another premise we don't share. It's also patently unproveable. Where does this idea come from?

238 posted on 12/04/2003 10:53:20 AM PST by Modernman (I am Evil Homer, I am Evil Homer....)
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To: Just mythoughts
Order of any kind does not just happen.

Fractals.

239 posted on 12/04/2003 10:54:06 AM PST by Junior ("Brillig and the Slithy Toves" would be a great name for a band.)
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To: Stultis
Indeed, some did take the Cardiff Giant as proof of gigantism referred to in the Bible, although the creator of the massive sculpture was only interested in financial gain.
240 posted on 12/04/2003 10:54:20 AM PST by Aracelis
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