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Common Creationist Arguments
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Creationism/Arguments/index.shtml ^

Posted on 03/08/2002 7:55:48 AM PST by JediGirl

Common Creationist Arguments

Religious Bigotry

"I pledge allegiance to the Christian flag, and to the Saviour, for whose Kingdom it stands, one Saviour, crucified, risen, and coming again, with life and liberty for all who believe."- Dan Quayle, participating in a modified Pledge of Allegiance at the "Reclaiming America" conference in Fort Lauderdale, Florida, 1994. Quoted from Eternal Hostility: The Struggle Between Theocracy and Democracy, by Frederick Clarkson. According to Dan Quayle and the other hate mongers at this conference, only those who believe deserve the right to life and liberty. I guess that means the rest of us can die in chains, just as we did in the Dark Ages.

Religious bigotry is at the heart of fundamentalism, and Christian fundamentalism is in turn the heart of the so-called "creation science" movement. In its various forms, creationist bigotry usually incorporates one or more of 3 basic premises:

  1. If evolution theory is wrong, then the only alternative is Biblical creationism. All dissimilar creation myths are invalid.

  2. The Bible is representative of all religious creation stories, and Christianity is representative of all "major" religions. Whenever someone speaks of "religion", "spirituality", and "mysticism" we should assume that he is talking about Christianity.

  3. Non-Christian beliefs are based on corrupted, immoral motivations, under the influence of Satan.

Every one of these premises is both indefensible and incredibly offensive, yet all of those assumptions are very common among creaionists, for whom it doesn't even seem to matter that their "scientific theory" would be the only theory in the history of science that requires faith in a particular religion.

Suggested Tactics

Educate Them About Other Religions. Some famous atheists have half-jokingly quipped in the past that "the solution to Christianity is education". While that may be a bit harsh, it is certainly fair to say that creationist misconceptions about the universality of their particular creation myth are best dispelled with information. Concrete information about the true beliefs of humanism (as opposed to the Christian fundamentalist strawman stereotype of selfish hedonists) and the specifics of other religions' creation myths (as opposed to the creationist assumption that they either follow Judaism or they're Satan worshippers) is the best way to break through a creationist's intellectual defense shield of xenophobia and religious egocentrism.

Examples follow:

"If creation theory has no independent basis, then why do all the world's religions have similar stories of the Creation and the Flood? Why do scientists insist on assuming that all of the world's religions are wrong? Evolution theory is nothing more than an organized assault upon religion."

This person confuses "religion" for "Christianity", by blindly assuming that every religion in the world is incompatible with evolution theory. In reality, many of the world's religions are quite compatible with evolution theory (some even provide support for it). Creationists who propose this argument are simply demonstrating ignorance of other religions. This is not surprising; throughout most of their history, Christians were not only reluctant to study other religions, but they actually tried to obliterate them by force, through torture, massacres, and destruction of cultural artifacts such as libraries and temples. Today, Christianity has generally improved upon its heinous past, and many Christians' value systems are quite similar to those of humanists. Such Christians no longer murder and torture "heretics", and some of them have even chosen to open their minds not only to science, but also to the richness and diversity of world history, as opposed to a narrow minded focus on European Christian history.

Progressive Christians tend to focus on Jesus' common-sense message of reciprocity, meaning that you should love your neighbour and treat others as you would have them treat you. This is known as the "Golden Rule", and while Christian egocentrics tend to act as though it is their exclusive intellectual property, versions of it are actually found in the ancient writings of virtually all the world's cultures. Of course, in order to live by this rule, they must downplay or refute the parts of the Bible which encourage intolerance and misogynism, sometimes by simply ignoring them and sometimes by arguing that the Golden Rule overrides them. The term "humanist Christian" is often thought of as an oxymoron, but that isn't necessarily the case; humanism and atheism are not synonymous. Humanism is about placing the good of humankind and the good of your fellow human above all else, and a humanist Christian could easily make the argument that the basic principles of humanism are highly compatible with the principles that Jesus tried to outline in the New Testament. However, unlike Jesus or God, humanism makes no value judgement on the basis of religion; it is equally accepting of Buddhists, Taoists, Christians, Hindus, Wiccans, Muslims, and others, including atheists. It is the only system of values which is so broadly inclusive, and therefore, it is the only system of values upon which governments should be based.

However, this means it is also anathema to certain Christians (read: right-wing fundamentalist fanatics), who have chosen instead to close their minds, cling to the past, and fight a seemingly never-ending propaganda war against science and humanism (some, like Pat Robertson, still defend the morality of Old Testament atrocities such as the slaughter of Palestinian women and children).

I remember once watching one of those "political talk shows" and seeing a Christian fundamentalist explaining that school prayer was necessary in order to introduce "spirituality" to children (for some reason, she felt it was necessary for the state to perform this function, rather than the parents). When queried about the obvious religious bigotry inherent in this approach, and its implications for religious freedom of non-Christians, she confidently replied that since all of the world's religions from Judaism to Islam to Christianity are very similar, sharing the same God, it wouldn't be a serious problem. And if they insisted on being difficult, they could always simply "opt out" (and in so doing, stand apart from the rest of the class, which is a great way to make a child feel welcome).

I remember being disgusted at her attitude and amazed at the fact that no one else on the panel seemed to take offense at her arrogance and bigotry. This kind of obtuse navel-gazing ignorance is a classic European cultural mindset which has unfortunately been adopted by many Americans (for example, they know the "yin/yang" symbol, but they have no idea that it is actually derived from the Taoist religion; they think it's just a "Chinese philosophy thing", or that it has something to do with kung fu).

I suggest that Christian egocentrists go to the library and borrow a book on the world's other religions before presuming to speak for them. There are billions of Hindus and Buddhists in the world, and none of them would want their children to feel like outcasts for not participating in school prayer to the Christian God. Hindus are even polytheistic, even though Christian egocentrists tend to believe that monotheism is somehow "more advanced" than polytheism (in reality, both monotheistic and polytheistic religions are traceable back to the dawn of recorded history). There are at least five different types of creation myth:

  1. Creation through Emergence: a pre-existing chaotic universe or netherworld gains form and substance in a gradual process. This type of creation myth is usually suggestive of slow maturation, or growth, as opposed to a single titanic event. The process might even be on-going and eternal (much like evolution). Zuni religious writings describe "unfinished creatures", slowly developing and growing "more manlike". Australian aboriginal creation myths describe primitive human-like creatures haphazardly forming out of plants and animal parts and then being moulded into finished humans by the gods. These types of religions (of which the American Navajo religion is yet another example) tend to emphasize the spirit of communion with the land and with the animals, since we came from them. This is a sharp contrast with Christianity and its past doctrines of human dominion over the animal kingdom.

  2. Creation through Birth: the Earth or the universe is quite literally born, either from a primordial mother or from two divine parents. The Aztec and Babylonian religions are examples of this type of creation myth.

  3. Creation from a Cosmic Egg: the universe hatches from an egg. This egg may be created by the gods, or it may be a god, or it may contain gods, along with the raw material necessary for the universe. The Chinese god Pan Gu was hatched from such an egg. In the Hindu religion, the universe was created through the breaking of a cosmic egg, which had shone as brilliantly as a sun and from which Brahma emerged.

  4. Creation by "Earth divers": the Earth is retrieved from primordial waters. It may be either retrieved intact or in pieces which are to be assembled by god(s). Many ancient central European tribal religions incorporated this type of creation myth.

  5. Creation by Supreme Being: a deity predates the universe. His power is absolute, and he creates the universe from his mind. Supreme deities are usually sky gods, for which the remoteness of the heavens generates awe and a sense of inscrutability among believers. Creationists invariably assume this to be the only type of creation myth.

"Let us break through some of the inhibitions that have existed to talk together across the flimsy lines of separation of faith, to talk together, to study together, to pray together, and ultimately to sing together His Holy name."- Senator Joseph Lieberman, speaking at Fellowship Chapel in Detroit while running for Vice President, Aug. 27, 2000 (like many Judeo-Christian bigots, he assumes all faiths share the same God). Quoted from AA News #808.

If you examine the world's various creation myths, you may notice a very interesting fact: many of them are more easily reconciled with biology and cosmology than you might expect. In fact, the "Creation through Emergence" story is startlingly similar to evolution theory, and "Creation from a Cosmic Egg" is strongly reminiscent of Big Bang theory. Moreover, a very common thread in various mythologies is the pre-existent chaos, in which a universe already exists before the "Creation" but it is formless and dark, and the gods merely take this pre-existing matter and transform it into the modern world. This is a sharp contrast to the creationist assumption that creation myths are all predicated upon a supreme being who creates the universe with a mere thought.

Does evolution theory represent an "assault upon religion?" Not necessarily. It does, however, represent the scientific conclusion that Biblical fundamentalism has no foundation whatsoever in logic and observation. Creationists interpret this as an attack against "religion" because they think they stand for all of the world's religions, despite their ideological differences and their long history of trying to wipe out those other religions.

"The only way to arrive at evolution theory is from a close-minded secular, humanistic mindset."

And why is humanism bad, particularly when we speak of science? Humanism, as it applies to science, is the notion that it is possible to understand the universe through the reasoning faculties of the human mind. It is part of the philosophical foundation of science! How can a legitimate scientific theory not be based on a humanistic mindset? The fact that a theory is "humanistic" is hardly a condemnation, but creationists are so accustomed to speaking of "humanism" in a perjorative sense that they instinctively assume everyone else sees the term in the same negative way.

The scientific method leaves no room for creationist nonsense. Scientists are supposed to confine their analyses strictly to the bounds of observation and reason. Scientists are supposed to assume that every phenomenon in the universe has a natural mechanism. Scientists are supposed to discount supernatural explanations for observed phenomena. That is the scientific method, in which all phenomena in the universe are grouped into those we understand and those we have yet to understand. There is no third option of supernatural explanations, nor should there be. If supernatural explanations were acceptable scientific explanations for all unknowns, then mankind would never have developed any science at all.

Scientists are often accused of being "close-minded" for doing this. The term "close-minded" has a perjorative implication, but it is a relative term. When we say that others are "close-minded", we usually mean that they are close-minded to whatever we're trying to push on them. Scientists are close-minded to the supernatural, but they are open-minded to observations and rational theories. Mystics, on the other hand, are open minded to mysticism, pseudoscience, and the supernatural, but they are close-minded to the scientific method. This contrast of competing philosophies is nothing new, but an increasingly large number of mystics want to upset the balance. They want to force scientists to consider supernatural theories alongside natural mechanisms; in effect, they want to destroy science by removing the scientific method and replacing it with the methods of mysticism.

"Evolutionists are just atheists who want to believe that there's no God so that they won't have to obey His laws, even though they know the truth, deep down. In fact, the decay of family values, the explosion of pornography, and the general decline in societal mores can be directly attributed to humanist teachings such as evolution theory and moral relativism, which basically encourages people to follow their own selfish interests instead of obeying traditional values and morals."

This is by far the most offensive, arrogant, insulting, and hateful creationist argument in existence: religious bigotry at its worst. If you are a religious person and you don't see what's wrong with this statement, then try asking yourself how you would feel if someone accused all Jews or all Hindus of being immoral and selfish. Try asking yourself how you would feel if someone assumed that all Buddhists were secretly Christians but were feverishly trying to deny the truth to themselves. Do you see the problem? This argument could simply be dismissed as fallacious, on the grounds that morality has nothing to do with the scientific validity of evolution theory. However, that would probably do little to silence the critics, whose attacks on evolution theory often start with this bizarre "moral argument".

"We're going to bring back God and the Bible and drive the gods of secular humanism right out of the public schools of America."- Pat Buchanan, at an anti-gay rally in Des Moines, Iowa, February 11, 1996 (it apparently doesn't occur to him that secular humanism is a philosophy rather than a religion, and as such, has no "gods", nor does it occur to him that in order to drive secular humanism out of public schools, they will have to abolish all science classses).

For some reason it is considered perfectly acceptable to hold bigoted views of atheists, particularly in America, where the flames of religious hatred are fanned daily by hate-mongers such as Pat Robertson and the rest of the so-called "right-wing fundamentalist movement". Religious leaders are fond of saying that atheism is every bit as much a religion as Christianity, Judaism, or Hinduism, in an obvious attempt to contradict the secular interpretation of atheism as an absence of religion. But if they truly feel that atheism is a religion, then why don't they treat atheists with the same religious tolerance that most of them preach for the "real" religions? Why is it acceptable to accuse atheists as a group of being amoral, or selfish, or hedonistic, or anti-family, or decadent?

If you listen carefully, you will find that anti-atheist hatred positively drips from the mouth of every preacher. Every minister. Every religious television show. If there is a modern Devil according to the fundamentalists, its name is secularism. Secularism is held responsible for everything from violence to divorce, rape, war, drug use, and any other imaginable social problem. It is the convenient scapegoat upon which every societal problem can be summarily blamed, without evidence or argument.

Atheists are Public Enemy #1 according to this mindset. If secularism is deemed responsible for everything the fundamentalists consider unpleasant or undesirable, then it's only natural to blame the members of this "cult": the atheists. It doesn't matter that there is no statistical variation in the crime rates between atheists and Christians. It doesn't matter that atheists are actually less likely to divorce than Christians. All that matters is that atheists think differently, and the persistent Crusade mentality of the fundamentalist deems all other systems of thought to be targets of enmity, hatred, and if possible, obliteration.

The historical fact is that these religious zealots are throwing stones from glass houses. The history of religion is anything but a noble one, and the union of church and state (which is what the creationists are pushing for, with the agenda to insinuate their religion into the schools) has invariably resulted in widespread oppression and human rights violations. In fact, the union of church and state continues to cause such problems today, as seen most dramatically in the resurgent Islamic fundamentalist governments of the Middle East, where women are being stoned to death for committing adultery or trying to find work. See the Religion and Morality page if you're interested in knowing more about this subject.

"You cannot produce one conclusive piece of evidence to prove the theory of evolution, yet you deny creationism! You are clearly being dogmatic."

This argument is sometimes accompanied by gratuitous publicity stunts, eg. there's at least one person offering a reward for anyone who can produce a piece of scientific evidence which he regards as conclusive proof of evolution. However, the basic premise falls apart on three levels.

  1. It implicitly assumes that if evolution theory cannot be "proven", then creationism wins by default. This is a false dilemma fallacy (artificially narrowing the choices). Even if you refuse to accept the overwhelming evidence for evolution theory, who's to say that the Earth must have been created in six days by one supreme being? Why six days? Why the one specific god described in the Jewish Bible? Why couldn't it have been created through a collaborative effort by many gods in a pantheistic religion? Why couldn't it have been created by the universal energy described by Taoist-style religions? Why couldn't it have been created by the pink unicorn? Why couldn't Earth itself be a god, as described in some of the "Earth mother" religions? Christians have a nasty tendency to forget that theirs is not the only religion in the world.

  2. It demands "proof" of a scientific theory. However, the act of demanding "proof" merely betrays ignorance of scientific methods. Unlike mathematical theories, scientific theories are not "proven". Competing theories are judged on their consistency with observation, and the best theory wins (science itself is an evolutionary process in that respect). If science demanded absolute "proof" of theories, then we wouldn't have any theories at all. Even the theory of gravity can't be "proven"; it can only be shown to be consistent with observation.

  3. The person who makes this argument sets himself up as the sole arbiter of any evidence that comes his way. He doesn't want to let "qualified biologists" judge (no surprise, since they won't produce the conclusions he's looking for), nor does he explain exactly what would qualify as conclusive evidence. By using himself as the arbiter and refusing to describe the proof he's looking for, he deliberately sets an impossible standard.

"I have a standing offer of $250,000 to anyone who can give any empirical evidence (scientific proof) for evolution. My $250,000 offer demonstrates that the hypothesis of evolution is nothing more than a religious belief."- Kent Hovind (notice how he doesn't realize there's no such thing as "scientific proof")

After being pressed for a full explanation of how to collect the $250,000 reward, he clarified his position: "In order to collect the money you must 'Prove beyond reasonable doubt that the process of evolution (The universe came into being by itself by purely natural processes (known as evolution) so that no appeal to the supernatural is needed.) is the only possible way the observed phenomena (the universe, planets, life and mankind) could have come into existence.' If you want everyone to pay for this silly theory of evolution to be taught then the burden of proof is on you."- Kent Hovind. Notice how he thinks evolution theory deals with the origins of the universe rather than the gradual change of biological structures (gross strawman fallacy), and also notice how he thinks a valid scientific theory must be the "only possible" explanation for a phenomenon (gross misrepresentation of scientific method). In reality, a valid theory is the one which most closely fits the facts, and Occam's Razor is used as a tie-breaker if necessary. Since an infinite number of theories can be generated for any given phenomenon (hence the need for Occam's Razor), it is impossible to fulfill his requirements for any scientific theory, even the theory of gravity.

This kind of argument is a classic example of the religious egocentrism that we have sadly come to expect from creationists. It assumes that creationism logically follows if evolution theory cannot be "proven" to their satisfaction. It contains the utterly absurd assumption that if there were no such thing as evolution theory, then a researcher would independently arrive at Biblical creationism, even if he were not schooled in Judeo-Christian thought! In the end, it is a mere rhetorical ploy, barely worthy of rebuttal.

As an aside, the tactic of demanding proof and then setting oneself up as the arbiter of that proof is also used by Holocaust deniers. If you are faced with this ploy (on the part of either creationists or holocaust deniers), a good tactic is to simply ask "what would you accept as evidence?" If a subject change is attempted, simply force the subject back to that central question: "what would you accept as evidence?"

You may be surprised to discover that when pushed, your opponent will have no answer. He will either become evasive or suggest a nonsensical form of evidence such as "direct observation of the moment of abiogenesis, four billion years ago", as if a time machine could be built for this purpose. Scientific theories are based on analysis of whatever evidence we can obtain, not an obstinate insistence upon particular forms of evidence which we can't obtain.

The natural creationist objection is to claim that indirect observations "don't count", but in reality, despite their ignorant expectations, countless scientific observations are indirect in nature. For example, we know that other stars in the universe have planets indirectly (through observation of gravitational perturbations) even though we can't travel there and see these planets for ourselves. We know that the Sun is powered by nuclear fusion indirectly (through observation of its mass, chemical composition, and output) even though we can't observe this process directly. We know about electrons indirectly (through their interaction with other forms of matter and energy) even though they're too small to see, even with a microscope. And finally, we know that life began on Earth billions of years ago (through observation of fossil patterns as well as geographical distribution of modern species) even though we can't travel back through time and watch it happen.



TOPICS: Miscellaneous; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: crevolist; sasu
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To: VadeRetro
The Encyclopedia of Evolution, by Richard Milner

Yes, I did follow the link. But I also didn't respond with "I was a fish!". You stated that humans had gills during a stage of development, I simply responded with information regarding that statement.

Evolutionary theory is the framework that most scientists work through. Creation is another framework. Both evolutionists and creationists have the same evidence, but they interpret it through these two differing frameworks.

There was something similar that happened in history, unfortunately in which the Church got a bad rap (but deservedly because they compromised their views). The Ptolemaic Theory of the solar system was the "Holy Grail" of the scientists of that day in astronomical theory.

Even when their own mathematical calculations didn't come out correctly, they put in "fixer-uppers" that would adjust the end result.

When their pet theory was put to the test by Galileo (inheriting his ideas from Copernicus), they viciously opposed Galileo (and convinced the Church that belief in an earth-centered solar system was Scriptural --- it isn't).

I've no problem with school's teaching and evolutionary framework, but I'd also approve of the addition of competing frameworks that have peer-reviewed scientific information supporting them. Let's be real: there're plenty of scientists who aren't creationists that point out difficulties with evolutionary theory.

There are also many scientists in astronomical, biological, mathematical, and other disciplines who are just as accredited, degreed, etc., that prefer the creationist/ID framework as those who prefer the evolutionary model. Personally, I'm tired of people getting angry with each other over this; the fact of the matter is, there are many creationists with valid reasons (both theologically and scientifically) for believing the way that they do. For perhaps similar reasons, there will be those who subscribe to the evolutionary model.

If someone from one camp prefers to continue viewing someone from another camp as ill-informed after debating the issues (not just slinging the "strawmen" that exist on both sides), fine. But be adult about it.

261 posted on 03/12/2002 12:05:49 PM PST by Elijah27
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To: JediGirl
I saw this post and thought it was about Creationist arguments.

I see it is not but is simple anti-Christian bigotry and has nothing to do with creationist argument.

Pathetic.

262 posted on 03/12/2002 12:08:26 PM PST by tallhappy
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To: Elijah27
There was something similar that happened in history, unfortunately in which the Church got a bad rap (but deservedly because they compromised their views).

I've never seen Copernicus/Galileo versus the Catholic Church spun as you do. Scientists convinced the church that Ptolemy was scriptural? What were Copernicus and Galileo, farmers? Laymen can lie to the Pope about the Pope's job?

You say creation is a "framework." It looks more like blinders to me.

263 posted on 03/12/2002 12:31:51 PM PST by VadeRetro
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To: VadeRetro
It was based on the appeal to authority in an area unfamiliary to many of the priests. One of my superiors has no computer literacy, thus depends on my "authority" to help him out from time to time. To him, I am a "computer guru" and because I have demonstrated some knowledge in this area he defers to me.

I expect much the same could be said of those tossing around calculations that may not have made much sense to the priests in those days. Do a Google search on Galileo or visit the local library and look through a few biographies of him.

I doubt any links to articles I provide you on this subject would really be considered "authoritative" to you given that I subscribe to a different framework than yourself. But if you find this information on your own, then I'd say you and I would have a better chance of agreeing, at least, on this one subject.

And I would suggest that those who are uninterested in honestly looking at the competing frameworks are the ones being blinded. I'd also guess that the majority of those reading responses that disagree with their own on this forum begin to formulate their argument before they've even finished reading the post...just because the first few words disagreed with their worldview.

Blind indeed.

264 posted on 03/12/2002 12:52:07 PM PST by Elijah27
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To: Elijah27
It was based on the appeal to authority in an area unfamiliary to many of the priests.

No question, in Galileo's day the scientific authorities were all but unanimous that Ptolemy was right and Copernicus was wrong. Their model was a little more complicated, but it had to be right because it was scriptural. (Moral: Never ignore Occam's Razor when it applies.)

That's the point where I can't let the Church off. Scientists didn't tell the Church to persecute heliocentrics as heretics. They can't do that. It's not their decision; not their job. Somebody might have suggested as much--can't prove it didn't happen--but the Church had to do it. That's their job, their call.

265 posted on 03/12/2002 3:33:21 PM PST by VadeRetro
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To: VadeRetro
That's the point where I can't let the Church off. Scientists didn't tell the Church to persecute heliocentrics as heretics. They can't do that. It's not their decision; not their job. Somebody might have suggested as much--can't prove it didn't happen--but the Church had to do it. That's their job, their call.

You and I are in complete agreement on this point. In fact, it is exactly the point I try to make with people on this subject: the church, basing their interpretation of the Scriptures (And being helped along by cherry-picked verses of scientists; I suspect you'd agree with me that people can & do pull verses from all over the Bible, out of context, to prove whatever they want.) on what the Ptolemaic Theorists taught them as "truth-in-science", ended up following a terrible course of action. They compromised their views of Scripture, based on the supposed authorities in astronomy of the day. This is exactly the same kind of thing that people are calling on the church to do today.

The other fun topic is on flat-earth. Isn't Scriptural, never was, and wasn't initiated by the church. As a matter of fact, Washington Irving, in his book on Columbus made up the whole story about Columbus and the Queen's conversation about "falling off the earth". However, we still see how the culture still accepts that story as true today, when in fact it is not.

I find it interesting the dogma created by those on both sides which is based on either bad interpretations of scientific evidence or faulty history or both.

266 posted on 03/13/2002 4:13:28 AM PST by Elijah27
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To: Psalm 73
OK, so you would have no problem with public school science classes also delving into the problems with macro-evolution, and the differences between the various evoltionary schools of thought? They seem to present it as a tidy package, all wrapped up and complete. They never cover the threads that do not connect, but just assume that they will, in time. It is not an exact science, even more in-exact (is that a word?) than human psychology.

At my high school in Louisiana, our Biology class didn't even discuss evolution due to the whining hissy fits the fundies throw over it. And your argument is totally flawed. See here

267 posted on 03/13/2002 4:51:02 AM PST by JediGirl
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To: JediGirl
"And your argument is totally flawed."

Evolution is NOT a complete science, an interesting theory, but not a complete science.
Just saying it is does not make it so, and slamming Christians who do not swallow the WHOLE evolution idea does NOT make you sound any more intelligent.
You have a bone to pick with christianity (yea, it shows), and it goes beyond Creationism vs (macro)Evolution theory.
It is noble for you to enter into discussions with those much older than you, but don't fall into the trap of being "intolerant" of other viewpoints.
People who do not blindly accept the gaps in Evolution theory are not morons - you pigeon-hole us into uneducated, unenlightened buffoons, hanging around the shack like in "Deliverence".
Show a little respect, we are lawyers and surgeons, we design combat aircraft and captain ships. We are Judges, educators, and law-enforcement officers. And Honor Society high-school kids, too.

268 posted on 03/13/2002 5:20:27 AM PST by Psalm 73
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To: Elijah27
"I think that all theories of beginnings should be studied in school"
Would this include the American Indian belief that life was begun on the back of a turtle? How about ancient Egyptian theories..or Aztec...or the space seed theory...or any of the other thousands of "how we got started" theories?
Where do you draw the line of what is a credible theory? Popularity?
Oldcats
269 posted on 03/13/2002 5:51:04 AM PST by oldcats
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To: oldcats
"I think that all theories of beginnings should be studied in school" Would this include the American Indian belief that life was begun on the back of a turtle? How about ancient Egyptian theories..or Aztec...or the space seed theory...or any of the other thousands of "how we got started" theories? Where do you draw the line of what is a credible theory? Popularity? Oldcats

Odd that you mention "space-seed theory". Isn't that one of the more popular beliefs in evolutionary circles? At least it seems to be more discussed as difficulties surrounding origins force theorists to push the beginning "out there" somewhere.

I stated that the frameworks that should be discussed within classrooms have reputable scientific data that support the contentions. The Creationist framework does indeed have such scientific data, and to my knowledge none of the other positions you have posted do.

Again, the strawmen abound in the statements you have made. The Bible contains unique claims about God, the world, and itself. Most archeological digs use its text as a starting point of discovery, and time and again it has been proven accurate (unlike many other ancient texts).

This in and of itself does not prove that other texts are invalid or that archeology should only focus on the information contained within the Bible. However, a collection of writings that has been shown to be extremely accurate historically is worthy of note when studying origins, especially when this otherwise-extremely-accurate text gives you information about those origins.

270 posted on 03/13/2002 7:14:39 AM PST by Elijah27
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To: Elijah27
You said..."The Creationist framework does indeed have such scientific data"
First we must set up some guidelines...What do you concider scientific data?
As for much in the Bible being "extremely accurate historically"...Hmmmm....where in ancient Egyptian texts are Jewish slaves mentioned, much less their exodus from slavery? No place. Where is the acheological evidence of the Tower of Babel..Noah's Ark?
Perhaps the reason that the archeological data matches what the Bible says is that the stories were written after the fact? Remember that even the oldest "copies" of the Old Testament are still much much younger than the actual events they portray.
Oldcats
271 posted on 03/13/2002 8:04:30 AM PST by oldcats
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To: gore3000
With so many pieces missing, paleontology is just a game of who can make up the most fantastic interpretation for the smallest evidence possible.

One of the things I find offensive is the cavalier way the anti-evolutionists dismiss other people's work. No, it not 'just a game' - there is a very large amount of study, work, and weighing evidence involved. People may come to wrong conclusions, but there are very few cases of outright fraud (and these were usually discovered because they went against evolution, not because a creationist found an error)

I guess it's almost a literal truth to some of the antis, but the devil is in the details.

PS, just why do whales have hipbones, and why is an occasional whale born with legs? Is there any explanation other than descent from terrestial ancestors?

PPS and why do chimps and people share the **exact same** (those devilish details again!) mutation that prevents vitamin C formation?

272 posted on 03/13/2002 9:02:09 AM PST by Virginia-American
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To: oldcats
You said..."The Creationist framework does indeed have such scientific data" First we must set up some guidelines...What do you concider scientific data?

The evidence of creation, which is the exact evidence that evolutionists use. The study of plants, animals, geology, astronomy, nuclear physics, etc., all contain data which are used by scientists.

As for much in the Bible being "extremely accurate historically"...Hmmmm....where in ancient Egyptian texts are Jewish slaves mentioned, much less their exodus from slavery? No place.

The 18 December 1995 edition of Time magazine had on the front cover a picture of Moses holding a slab of stone, on which are the Ten Commandments, with the question splashed across the centre of the page asking, ‘IS THE BIBLE FACT OR FICTION’.

The article claims that there are

‘parts of the Old Testament where the evidence is contradictory or still absent, including slavery in Egypt, the existence of Moses, the Exodus and Joshua’s military conquest of the Holy Land … . Kathleen Kenyon, who excavated at Jericho for six years, found no evidence of destruction at that time’ (p. 54).

In fact, she claims that Jericho was uninhabited in 1400 BC, the Biblical date for the Exodus.

‘When the material is analysed in the light of our present knowledge, it becomes clear that there is a complete gap both on the tell and in the tombs between c.1580 BC and c.1400 BC.’
The expression ‘at that time’ is extremely significant. The fact is that there is plenty of evidence for slavery in Egypt, the existence of Moses, the Exodus and Joshua’s military conquest of the Holy Land. At Jericho, Professor Garstang uncovered toppled walls and a thick layer of ash all over the tell which denoted a fire that had been deliberately lit.

‘The outer wall suffered most, its remains falling down the slope … . Traces of intense fire are plain to see, including reddened masses of brick, cracked stones, charred timbers and ashes. Houses alongside the wall were found burnt to the ground, their roofs fallen upon the domestic pottery within.’

But it was not at the time archaeologists had allocated to the event.

‘It had been believed in the earlier excavations that the defensive walls of the Late Bronze Age town had been discovered, and that they had been destroyed by earthquake and fire. It became clear in the course of the recent excavations that these walls had been mistakenly identified. They actually belonged to the Early Bronze Age.’
From the information revealed in 1 Kings 6:1, the date of the Exodus can be calculated. It says, ‘And it came to pass in the four hundred and eightieth year after the children of Israel had come out of the land of Egypt, in the fourth year of Solomon’s reign over Israel, in the month Ziv, which is the second month, that he began to build the house of the LORD’.

Most historians agree that Solomon ascended the throne about 970 BC.4 His 4th year would be 966 BC, and 480 years before that would be about 1446 BC. According to the traditional dates accepted by most archaeologists, that would be during the rule of the 18th dynasty of Egypt.

Excerpt of "Searching for Moses", an article by David Down, Field Archeologist

Where is the acheological evidence of the Tower of Babel..

The Greek historian Herodotus (5th century BC), saw it on his way through Babylon, and described it as having eight levels, and standing about 20 modern stories high. The internet and a local library are at your disposal. Feel free to double-check. As a side-note, the Tower of Babel is an excellent story for how different languages came to be.

Noah's Ark?

There are numerous reports relating to the ark that you can choose from; some more reliable than others. However, in absence of an actual decaying ark, using the Bible as the guide, John Woodmorappe wrote a book titled: "Noah's Ark: A Feasibility Study" that provides detailed scientific answers to questions people such as yourself have about the ark.

Perhaps the reason that the archeological data matches what the Bible says is that the stories were written after the fact? Remember that even the oldest "copies" of the Old Testament are still much much younger than the actual events they portray. Oldcats

Are you serious? ALL history is written after the fact. Duh.

273 posted on 03/13/2002 9:45:36 AM PST by Elijah27
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To: Psalm 73
"Show a little respect, we are lawyers and surgeons, we design combat aircraft and captain ships. We are Judges, educators, and law-enforcement officers. And Honor Society high-school kids, too." -- Psalm 73

Yes, but are any of you evolutionary biologists or even gentlemen naturalists? It's fine to have an opinion on things with which you are only vaguely familiar. Unfortunately the bulk of the Creationist familiarity with the subject is drawn from a very few entirely worthless sources. Persistent misinformation alone drives Creationism.

Evolution is a necessity of life. Without the ability to change and adapt life could have been introduced to this planet in great abundance but would have shortly disappeared. There is no other aspect of life of which man is more certain than the fact of evolution.

274 posted on 03/13/2002 4:32:56 PM PST by Vercingetorix
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To: Virginia-American
"With so many pieces missing, paleontology is just a game of who can make up the most fantastic interpretation for the smallest evidence possible. - me-

One of the things I find offensive is the cavalier way the anti-evolutionists dismiss other people's work."

You are wrong, I do not cavalierly dismiss the work of other people. I gave the reasons why I dismiss their work, allow me to quote myself:

Funny thing about evolutionists is that they admit the fossil record is inadequate themselves but they continue to make categorical statements proclaiming evolution to be true based on the very fossil record which they find inadequate!

Not only are there tremendous gaps in the fossil record, but also fossils tell us very little about a species. Fossils (except in very special circumstances which can be counted on the fingers of one hand) do not provide DNA. Fossils often do not provide a complete skeleton, just bits and pieces of the specimen. Fossils more importantly do not provide evidence of 99% of what makes up an individual, what makes each species, each individual different.

Now in my first paragraph I show a clear contradiction in the statements by evolutionists regarding the fossil record. Seems to me that they are saying heads I win tails you lose. Either the fossil record proves evolution or it does not, but this kind of double talk is totally unscientific.

In the second paragraph I point out what not many are aware of:
1. that DNA, the one thing which can open up dead species to fairly precise examination is almost never found in fossil digs.
2. that bones are a very small part of what makes an individual. The bones do not tell us anything about numerous important characteristics that need to be passed on from generation to generation if evolution is to be proven true.
3. that paleontologists make decisions about new species with very, very little bone evidence. Many so called dead species only consist of a few bones out of the hundreds in each individual. Yet, that does not stop paleontologists from making outrageous claims for each new find. A good example of this is the famous Lucy which pushed back the hominid species a few million years into the past. The face of Lucy is pure make believe, it is more plaster than bone. How could it be determined to be human like if they do not even know what the head really looked like? It is an outrage.

So in view of the above, I think all can see that I did not reach the conclusion you quoted in haste or without a strong basis for it. In case you need more proof of paleontological games, see the next posting.

275 posted on 03/13/2002 7:41:18 PM PST by gore3000
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To: Virginia-American
PALEONTOLOGICAL FRAUD

A great example of paleontological fraud is Eosimias. Eosimias was trumpeted by evos, by so called scientists and by the press 'the missing link of human evolution'. Here's Eosimias:

Time Magazine's Eosimias illustration
The Evolutionary tree showing Eosimias's place in it

This must be quite a find indeed! The whole history of man, the missing link, finally found! A great new specimen found!

There are many links to the pictures above, however you will have to look for a long time for the pictures of the bones showing this fantastic find. I found a site which showed the bones and guess what, they were from those totally unscientific folk called creationists. Imagine the nerve, the total gall of these people of showing the evidence, the bones, upon which those gorgeous drawings were made! How unscientific can they get?:

Alas! Here's the picture! The proof of macro-evolution, the proof that Darwin was right! The proof that God does not exist!


From:Evolution in the News - September 2000
In case you missed it, the "evidence" is in the case being held by the man, the bones are two, just above the white ruler.

However, this is not the only evidence for Eosimias of course, Here's the story of the lower jaw of Eosimias:
In a separate article in the journal Nature, the group reported on more fossils from a previously discovered third primate called Eosimias centennicus. They had discovered its teeth and jaws in the mid 1990s. Now they’ve got ankle bones, which they say backs up their controversial claim that Eosimias is an early ancestor of humans.
from:A Shrew Size Primate

Note that the jaw bones had been found some 10 years earlier in a part of China hundreds of miles away from the ankle bone find. One may ask how the jaw bones and the ankle bones were determined to be of the same creature? What scientific explanation could there be for such a determination?

No doubt they were genetically linked through evo supermollecular retro-dna analysis to each other (this is a wonderful new invention which can trace non-existing DNA back hundreds of millions of generations). From this awesome evidence they made the drawings, the articles, the missing links and a whole new family tree for mankind! And the best part about all this is that your taxes paid for this wonderful discovery!

276 posted on 03/13/2002 7:41:39 PM PST by gore3000
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To: Vercingetorix
Without the ability to change and adapt life could have been introduced to this planet in great abundance but would have shortly disappeared.

You cite that as a proof of evolution, I would cite that as a proof that life was created. Let's look at the simplest form of life known, a single celled creature. It is such a complex system (and very ingenious) which it is totally impossible to believe it arose by chance. Two DNA strands, each the mirror image of the other for backup, RNA to tranduce the code into proteins, a feedback system to correct for errors, millions of these DNA base pairs working together to provide the functions of nourishment, reproduction, excretion, growth, etc. necessary in every living being. And all this is a small part of a being of which you can fit a trillion of them in a spoon! To ascribe such a complex, interrelated system to chance is totally ridiculous.

277 posted on 03/13/2002 7:52:00 PM PST by gore3000
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To: Elijah27
There's an excellent magazine (IMHO) called "Biblical Archaeology" where they review digs in the Holy Land. There are many instances of archaeology confirming Biblical texts. They usually have great pictures of the Temple Mount and the dig sites.

I'll caveat with the comment that it may have too much of a naturalistic slant for some folks on this thread. But they do call it archaeology.

278 posted on 03/13/2002 8:13:03 PM PST by <1/1,000,000th%
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To: Vercingetorix
"There is no other aspect of life of which man is more certain than the fact of evolution."

I don't believe any of us do not believe in micro-evolution, that is a verifiable fact, that we all have witnessed.
It is the macro-evolution theory that we have a difficult time with.
It is not a complete theory, not all wrapped up nice and tidy like a Birthday present.
Besides being no verifiable proof that one distinct species can become another entirely new species, (all viewable evolution is within species),
There are gaps and differing scientific views on mechanisms - with the scientific belief that these gaps and views will be smoothed over and proven given enough research.
Essentialy science has FAITH that this will take place. Creationism also take a degree of faith, too.
So if we are talking degrees of faith...
And the sentence on careers was just to illustrate that we are not all rejects from the set of "Deliverence" - we are not mental defectives or morons, despite what we read on FreeRepublic about ourselves.

279 posted on 03/14/2002 3:08:52 AM PST by Psalm 73
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To: 1/1,000,000th%
Thanks! I'll check it out!
280 posted on 03/14/2002 3:34:31 AM PST by Elijah27
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