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Common Creationist Arguments
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Creationism/Arguments/index.shtml ^

Posted on 03/08/2002 7:55:48 AM PST by JediGirl

Common Creationist Arguments

Religious Bigotry

"I pledge allegiance to the Christian flag, and to the Saviour, for whose Kingdom it stands, one Saviour, crucified, risen, and coming again, with life and liberty for all who believe."- Dan Quayle, participating in a modified Pledge of Allegiance at the "Reclaiming America" conference in Fort Lauderdale, Florida, 1994. Quoted from Eternal Hostility: The Struggle Between Theocracy and Democracy, by Frederick Clarkson. According to Dan Quayle and the other hate mongers at this conference, only those who believe deserve the right to life and liberty. I guess that means the rest of us can die in chains, just as we did in the Dark Ages.

Religious bigotry is at the heart of fundamentalism, and Christian fundamentalism is in turn the heart of the so-called "creation science" movement. In its various forms, creationist bigotry usually incorporates one or more of 3 basic premises:

  1. If evolution theory is wrong, then the only alternative is Biblical creationism. All dissimilar creation myths are invalid.

  2. The Bible is representative of all religious creation stories, and Christianity is representative of all "major" religions. Whenever someone speaks of "religion", "spirituality", and "mysticism" we should assume that he is talking about Christianity.

  3. Non-Christian beliefs are based on corrupted, immoral motivations, under the influence of Satan.

Every one of these premises is both indefensible and incredibly offensive, yet all of those assumptions are very common among creaionists, for whom it doesn't even seem to matter that their "scientific theory" would be the only theory in the history of science that requires faith in a particular religion.

Suggested Tactics

Educate Them About Other Religions. Some famous atheists have half-jokingly quipped in the past that "the solution to Christianity is education". While that may be a bit harsh, it is certainly fair to say that creationist misconceptions about the universality of their particular creation myth are best dispelled with information. Concrete information about the true beliefs of humanism (as opposed to the Christian fundamentalist strawman stereotype of selfish hedonists) and the specifics of other religions' creation myths (as opposed to the creationist assumption that they either follow Judaism or they're Satan worshippers) is the best way to break through a creationist's intellectual defense shield of xenophobia and religious egocentrism.

Examples follow:

"If creation theory has no independent basis, then why do all the world's religions have similar stories of the Creation and the Flood? Why do scientists insist on assuming that all of the world's religions are wrong? Evolution theory is nothing more than an organized assault upon religion."

This person confuses "religion" for "Christianity", by blindly assuming that every religion in the world is incompatible with evolution theory. In reality, many of the world's religions are quite compatible with evolution theory (some even provide support for it). Creationists who propose this argument are simply demonstrating ignorance of other religions. This is not surprising; throughout most of their history, Christians were not only reluctant to study other religions, but they actually tried to obliterate them by force, through torture, massacres, and destruction of cultural artifacts such as libraries and temples. Today, Christianity has generally improved upon its heinous past, and many Christians' value systems are quite similar to those of humanists. Such Christians no longer murder and torture "heretics", and some of them have even chosen to open their minds not only to science, but also to the richness and diversity of world history, as opposed to a narrow minded focus on European Christian history.

Progressive Christians tend to focus on Jesus' common-sense message of reciprocity, meaning that you should love your neighbour and treat others as you would have them treat you. This is known as the "Golden Rule", and while Christian egocentrics tend to act as though it is their exclusive intellectual property, versions of it are actually found in the ancient writings of virtually all the world's cultures. Of course, in order to live by this rule, they must downplay or refute the parts of the Bible which encourage intolerance and misogynism, sometimes by simply ignoring them and sometimes by arguing that the Golden Rule overrides them. The term "humanist Christian" is often thought of as an oxymoron, but that isn't necessarily the case; humanism and atheism are not synonymous. Humanism is about placing the good of humankind and the good of your fellow human above all else, and a humanist Christian could easily make the argument that the basic principles of humanism are highly compatible with the principles that Jesus tried to outline in the New Testament. However, unlike Jesus or God, humanism makes no value judgement on the basis of religion; it is equally accepting of Buddhists, Taoists, Christians, Hindus, Wiccans, Muslims, and others, including atheists. It is the only system of values which is so broadly inclusive, and therefore, it is the only system of values upon which governments should be based.

However, this means it is also anathema to certain Christians (read: right-wing fundamentalist fanatics), who have chosen instead to close their minds, cling to the past, and fight a seemingly never-ending propaganda war against science and humanism (some, like Pat Robertson, still defend the morality of Old Testament atrocities such as the slaughter of Palestinian women and children).

I remember once watching one of those "political talk shows" and seeing a Christian fundamentalist explaining that school prayer was necessary in order to introduce "spirituality" to children (for some reason, she felt it was necessary for the state to perform this function, rather than the parents). When queried about the obvious religious bigotry inherent in this approach, and its implications for religious freedom of non-Christians, she confidently replied that since all of the world's religions from Judaism to Islam to Christianity are very similar, sharing the same God, it wouldn't be a serious problem. And if they insisted on being difficult, they could always simply "opt out" (and in so doing, stand apart from the rest of the class, which is a great way to make a child feel welcome).

I remember being disgusted at her attitude and amazed at the fact that no one else on the panel seemed to take offense at her arrogance and bigotry. This kind of obtuse navel-gazing ignorance is a classic European cultural mindset which has unfortunately been adopted by many Americans (for example, they know the "yin/yang" symbol, but they have no idea that it is actually derived from the Taoist religion; they think it's just a "Chinese philosophy thing", or that it has something to do with kung fu).

I suggest that Christian egocentrists go to the library and borrow a book on the world's other religions before presuming to speak for them. There are billions of Hindus and Buddhists in the world, and none of them would want their children to feel like outcasts for not participating in school prayer to the Christian God. Hindus are even polytheistic, even though Christian egocentrists tend to believe that monotheism is somehow "more advanced" than polytheism (in reality, both monotheistic and polytheistic religions are traceable back to the dawn of recorded history). There are at least five different types of creation myth:

  1. Creation through Emergence: a pre-existing chaotic universe or netherworld gains form and substance in a gradual process. This type of creation myth is usually suggestive of slow maturation, or growth, as opposed to a single titanic event. The process might even be on-going and eternal (much like evolution). Zuni religious writings describe "unfinished creatures", slowly developing and growing "more manlike". Australian aboriginal creation myths describe primitive human-like creatures haphazardly forming out of plants and animal parts and then being moulded into finished humans by the gods. These types of religions (of which the American Navajo religion is yet another example) tend to emphasize the spirit of communion with the land and with the animals, since we came from them. This is a sharp contrast with Christianity and its past doctrines of human dominion over the animal kingdom.

  2. Creation through Birth: the Earth or the universe is quite literally born, either from a primordial mother or from two divine parents. The Aztec and Babylonian religions are examples of this type of creation myth.

  3. Creation from a Cosmic Egg: the universe hatches from an egg. This egg may be created by the gods, or it may be a god, or it may contain gods, along with the raw material necessary for the universe. The Chinese god Pan Gu was hatched from such an egg. In the Hindu religion, the universe was created through the breaking of a cosmic egg, which had shone as brilliantly as a sun and from which Brahma emerged.

  4. Creation by "Earth divers": the Earth is retrieved from primordial waters. It may be either retrieved intact or in pieces which are to be assembled by god(s). Many ancient central European tribal religions incorporated this type of creation myth.

  5. Creation by Supreme Being: a deity predates the universe. His power is absolute, and he creates the universe from his mind. Supreme deities are usually sky gods, for which the remoteness of the heavens generates awe and a sense of inscrutability among believers. Creationists invariably assume this to be the only type of creation myth.

"Let us break through some of the inhibitions that have existed to talk together across the flimsy lines of separation of faith, to talk together, to study together, to pray together, and ultimately to sing together His Holy name."- Senator Joseph Lieberman, speaking at Fellowship Chapel in Detroit while running for Vice President, Aug. 27, 2000 (like many Judeo-Christian bigots, he assumes all faiths share the same God). Quoted from AA News #808.

If you examine the world's various creation myths, you may notice a very interesting fact: many of them are more easily reconciled with biology and cosmology than you might expect. In fact, the "Creation through Emergence" story is startlingly similar to evolution theory, and "Creation from a Cosmic Egg" is strongly reminiscent of Big Bang theory. Moreover, a very common thread in various mythologies is the pre-existent chaos, in which a universe already exists before the "Creation" but it is formless and dark, and the gods merely take this pre-existing matter and transform it into the modern world. This is a sharp contrast to the creationist assumption that creation myths are all predicated upon a supreme being who creates the universe with a mere thought.

Does evolution theory represent an "assault upon religion?" Not necessarily. It does, however, represent the scientific conclusion that Biblical fundamentalism has no foundation whatsoever in logic and observation. Creationists interpret this as an attack against "religion" because they think they stand for all of the world's religions, despite their ideological differences and their long history of trying to wipe out those other religions.

"The only way to arrive at evolution theory is from a close-minded secular, humanistic mindset."

And why is humanism bad, particularly when we speak of science? Humanism, as it applies to science, is the notion that it is possible to understand the universe through the reasoning faculties of the human mind. It is part of the philosophical foundation of science! How can a legitimate scientific theory not be based on a humanistic mindset? The fact that a theory is "humanistic" is hardly a condemnation, but creationists are so accustomed to speaking of "humanism" in a perjorative sense that they instinctively assume everyone else sees the term in the same negative way.

The scientific method leaves no room for creationist nonsense. Scientists are supposed to confine their analyses strictly to the bounds of observation and reason. Scientists are supposed to assume that every phenomenon in the universe has a natural mechanism. Scientists are supposed to discount supernatural explanations for observed phenomena. That is the scientific method, in which all phenomena in the universe are grouped into those we understand and those we have yet to understand. There is no third option of supernatural explanations, nor should there be. If supernatural explanations were acceptable scientific explanations for all unknowns, then mankind would never have developed any science at all.

Scientists are often accused of being "close-minded" for doing this. The term "close-minded" has a perjorative implication, but it is a relative term. When we say that others are "close-minded", we usually mean that they are close-minded to whatever we're trying to push on them. Scientists are close-minded to the supernatural, but they are open-minded to observations and rational theories. Mystics, on the other hand, are open minded to mysticism, pseudoscience, and the supernatural, but they are close-minded to the scientific method. This contrast of competing philosophies is nothing new, but an increasingly large number of mystics want to upset the balance. They want to force scientists to consider supernatural theories alongside natural mechanisms; in effect, they want to destroy science by removing the scientific method and replacing it with the methods of mysticism.

"Evolutionists are just atheists who want to believe that there's no God so that they won't have to obey His laws, even though they know the truth, deep down. In fact, the decay of family values, the explosion of pornography, and the general decline in societal mores can be directly attributed to humanist teachings such as evolution theory and moral relativism, which basically encourages people to follow their own selfish interests instead of obeying traditional values and morals."

This is by far the most offensive, arrogant, insulting, and hateful creationist argument in existence: religious bigotry at its worst. If you are a religious person and you don't see what's wrong with this statement, then try asking yourself how you would feel if someone accused all Jews or all Hindus of being immoral and selfish. Try asking yourself how you would feel if someone assumed that all Buddhists were secretly Christians but were feverishly trying to deny the truth to themselves. Do you see the problem? This argument could simply be dismissed as fallacious, on the grounds that morality has nothing to do with the scientific validity of evolution theory. However, that would probably do little to silence the critics, whose attacks on evolution theory often start with this bizarre "moral argument".

"We're going to bring back God and the Bible and drive the gods of secular humanism right out of the public schools of America."- Pat Buchanan, at an anti-gay rally in Des Moines, Iowa, February 11, 1996 (it apparently doesn't occur to him that secular humanism is a philosophy rather than a religion, and as such, has no "gods", nor does it occur to him that in order to drive secular humanism out of public schools, they will have to abolish all science classses).

For some reason it is considered perfectly acceptable to hold bigoted views of atheists, particularly in America, where the flames of religious hatred are fanned daily by hate-mongers such as Pat Robertson and the rest of the so-called "right-wing fundamentalist movement". Religious leaders are fond of saying that atheism is every bit as much a religion as Christianity, Judaism, or Hinduism, in an obvious attempt to contradict the secular interpretation of atheism as an absence of religion. But if they truly feel that atheism is a religion, then why don't they treat atheists with the same religious tolerance that most of them preach for the "real" religions? Why is it acceptable to accuse atheists as a group of being amoral, or selfish, or hedonistic, or anti-family, or decadent?

If you listen carefully, you will find that anti-atheist hatred positively drips from the mouth of every preacher. Every minister. Every religious television show. If there is a modern Devil according to the fundamentalists, its name is secularism. Secularism is held responsible for everything from violence to divorce, rape, war, drug use, and any other imaginable social problem. It is the convenient scapegoat upon which every societal problem can be summarily blamed, without evidence or argument.

Atheists are Public Enemy #1 according to this mindset. If secularism is deemed responsible for everything the fundamentalists consider unpleasant or undesirable, then it's only natural to blame the members of this "cult": the atheists. It doesn't matter that there is no statistical variation in the crime rates between atheists and Christians. It doesn't matter that atheists are actually less likely to divorce than Christians. All that matters is that atheists think differently, and the persistent Crusade mentality of the fundamentalist deems all other systems of thought to be targets of enmity, hatred, and if possible, obliteration.

The historical fact is that these religious zealots are throwing stones from glass houses. The history of religion is anything but a noble one, and the union of church and state (which is what the creationists are pushing for, with the agenda to insinuate their religion into the schools) has invariably resulted in widespread oppression and human rights violations. In fact, the union of church and state continues to cause such problems today, as seen most dramatically in the resurgent Islamic fundamentalist governments of the Middle East, where women are being stoned to death for committing adultery or trying to find work. See the Religion and Morality page if you're interested in knowing more about this subject.

"You cannot produce one conclusive piece of evidence to prove the theory of evolution, yet you deny creationism! You are clearly being dogmatic."

This argument is sometimes accompanied by gratuitous publicity stunts, eg. there's at least one person offering a reward for anyone who can produce a piece of scientific evidence which he regards as conclusive proof of evolution. However, the basic premise falls apart on three levels.

  1. It implicitly assumes that if evolution theory cannot be "proven", then creationism wins by default. This is a false dilemma fallacy (artificially narrowing the choices). Even if you refuse to accept the overwhelming evidence for evolution theory, who's to say that the Earth must have been created in six days by one supreme being? Why six days? Why the one specific god described in the Jewish Bible? Why couldn't it have been created through a collaborative effort by many gods in a pantheistic religion? Why couldn't it have been created by the universal energy described by Taoist-style religions? Why couldn't it have been created by the pink unicorn? Why couldn't Earth itself be a god, as described in some of the "Earth mother" religions? Christians have a nasty tendency to forget that theirs is not the only religion in the world.

  2. It demands "proof" of a scientific theory. However, the act of demanding "proof" merely betrays ignorance of scientific methods. Unlike mathematical theories, scientific theories are not "proven". Competing theories are judged on their consistency with observation, and the best theory wins (science itself is an evolutionary process in that respect). If science demanded absolute "proof" of theories, then we wouldn't have any theories at all. Even the theory of gravity can't be "proven"; it can only be shown to be consistent with observation.

  3. The person who makes this argument sets himself up as the sole arbiter of any evidence that comes his way. He doesn't want to let "qualified biologists" judge (no surprise, since they won't produce the conclusions he's looking for), nor does he explain exactly what would qualify as conclusive evidence. By using himself as the arbiter and refusing to describe the proof he's looking for, he deliberately sets an impossible standard.

"I have a standing offer of $250,000 to anyone who can give any empirical evidence (scientific proof) for evolution. My $250,000 offer demonstrates that the hypothesis of evolution is nothing more than a religious belief."- Kent Hovind (notice how he doesn't realize there's no such thing as "scientific proof")

After being pressed for a full explanation of how to collect the $250,000 reward, he clarified his position: "In order to collect the money you must 'Prove beyond reasonable doubt that the process of evolution (The universe came into being by itself by purely natural processes (known as evolution) so that no appeal to the supernatural is needed.) is the only possible way the observed phenomena (the universe, planets, life and mankind) could have come into existence.' If you want everyone to pay for this silly theory of evolution to be taught then the burden of proof is on you."- Kent Hovind. Notice how he thinks evolution theory deals with the origins of the universe rather than the gradual change of biological structures (gross strawman fallacy), and also notice how he thinks a valid scientific theory must be the "only possible" explanation for a phenomenon (gross misrepresentation of scientific method). In reality, a valid theory is the one which most closely fits the facts, and Occam's Razor is used as a tie-breaker if necessary. Since an infinite number of theories can be generated for any given phenomenon (hence the need for Occam's Razor), it is impossible to fulfill his requirements for any scientific theory, even the theory of gravity.

This kind of argument is a classic example of the religious egocentrism that we have sadly come to expect from creationists. It assumes that creationism logically follows if evolution theory cannot be "proven" to their satisfaction. It contains the utterly absurd assumption that if there were no such thing as evolution theory, then a researcher would independently arrive at Biblical creationism, even if he were not schooled in Judeo-Christian thought! In the end, it is a mere rhetorical ploy, barely worthy of rebuttal.

As an aside, the tactic of demanding proof and then setting oneself up as the arbiter of that proof is also used by Holocaust deniers. If you are faced with this ploy (on the part of either creationists or holocaust deniers), a good tactic is to simply ask "what would you accept as evidence?" If a subject change is attempted, simply force the subject back to that central question: "what would you accept as evidence?"

You may be surprised to discover that when pushed, your opponent will have no answer. He will either become evasive or suggest a nonsensical form of evidence such as "direct observation of the moment of abiogenesis, four billion years ago", as if a time machine could be built for this purpose. Scientific theories are based on analysis of whatever evidence we can obtain, not an obstinate insistence upon particular forms of evidence which we can't obtain.

The natural creationist objection is to claim that indirect observations "don't count", but in reality, despite their ignorant expectations, countless scientific observations are indirect in nature. For example, we know that other stars in the universe have planets indirectly (through observation of gravitational perturbations) even though we can't travel there and see these planets for ourselves. We know that the Sun is powered by nuclear fusion indirectly (through observation of its mass, chemical composition, and output) even though we can't observe this process directly. We know about electrons indirectly (through their interaction with other forms of matter and energy) even though they're too small to see, even with a microscope. And finally, we know that life began on Earth billions of years ago (through observation of fossil patterns as well as geographical distribution of modern species) even though we can't travel back through time and watch it happen.



TOPICS: Miscellaneous; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: crevolist; sasu
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To: Dimensio
Thanks for your response.

Respectfully, I disagree with the bacterial mutations idea. The interpretation of the evidence is what leads one to suppose that this is evolution at work. In reality, what has been shown is that the bacteria already were resistant.

Some antibiotic resistance was already present in the bacterial population, as shown by specimens frozen before the development of antibiotics. So natural selection only selected from pre-existing variation. But nothing new was produced. Similarly, myxomatosis-resistant rabbits were already present in the population. When myxomatosis was introduced to Australia, non-resistant rabbits were selected against. But this processes caused the loss of information from the bacteria and rabbit population due to the loss of genetic diversity.

81 posted on 03/08/2002 10:55:46 AM PST by Elijah27
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To: PatrickHenry
Lurking ...
82 posted on 03/08/2002 10:56:56 AM PST by PatrickHenry
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To: Dimensio
Secret Agent Man posted quite a few...of course, many of them could be readily identified as being based in bad science (like the "magnetic field problem"), but a bad example is still an example, right?

LOL! Same tired old arguments that have been debunked so many times they belong in a hall of fame.

83 posted on 03/08/2002 10:57:34 AM PST by RadioAstronomer
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To: rdb3
"You are a bit presumptious."

I'm not being anything. I asked a question that you virtually ignored. Now you are making assumptions as to my person.


Recap:

I said (sarcastically):
Obviously the creator has a creator!

You replied:
Has anyone you know ever said that He didn't? I didn't think so.

Note your sentence after your question: I didn't think so.

You assumed the answer to the question you asked of me. I consider that presumptious. If you were trying to imply that you doubted that the answer to your question was "yes", then you should have phrased it as "I don't think so.". Using "didn't" implies that you have obtained information that confirms your suspicions. The context you used it in is common usage when a question is asked with the assumption that the answer is already known to be in the negative.
84 posted on 03/08/2002 10:58:52 AM PST by Dimensio
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To: Dimensio
Fair enough, although that wasn't my intention. Bad wording.
85 posted on 03/08/2002 11:06:14 AM PST by rdb3
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To: Metal4Ever
Under the 1st Ammendment of our great nation, you are entitled to your pledge and I find nothing personally wrong with advocating your faith and celebrating Christianity.

I'm not defending it as my pledge. In some forty-three years, most in the church, and in several denominations, I don't ever recall reciting this, although most churches I've attended do display both the U.S. and the Christian Flag.

The Pledge to the U.S. Flag was written in 1892. The Pledge to the Christian Flag was written in 1908. Congress adopted the Pledge to the U.S. Flag in 1941 or 42. Around the same time, churches established a protocol of sorts for dealing with the Christian Flag. (I pulled this from several websites).

I have no allegiance to a Christian "flag," but don't find the pledge particularly "disturbing."

86 posted on 03/08/2002 11:15:15 AM PST by Ward Smythe
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To: Psalm 73
"And conversely, (macro-) Evolution is a doctrine, not a theory.

It is NOT hard science, not in the way Chemistry, Biology, Physics, and the like are.

Uh...you do realize that evolution is a central pillar of all of modern biological science, don't you? If Darwin was wrong, then most of biology is wrong.

Regards,
Snidely

87 posted on 03/08/2002 12:08:21 PM PST by Snidely Whiplash
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To: Harrison Bergeron
I know exactly what you mean. I bought into the lie of electricity. Nobody's ever seen that either. How does it feel to have God's knowledge? Maybe you can answer the age old question: Can God make a person so heavy with hubris that He, Himself, can't lift that person?

There's another age old axiom that states "A is not non-A." A finite point (particular) makes no sense without an infinite reference point (universal). That's been the age-old struggle since Aquinas, Plato, Kant, Skinner... and so on. To try to define the unversal in context of the particular is self-defeating. While the question you've asked has perplexed many people over the ages it's only done so because people have lost touch with the Universal and focused on the particulars.

88 posted on 03/08/2002 12:35:27 PM PST by Frapster
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To: Snidely Whiplash
Uh...you do realize that evolution is a central pillar of all of modern biological science, don't you? If Darwin was wrong, then most of biology is wrong.

I have a suspicion that most of them don't care. There's no shortage of arguments from the consequences if evolution is accepted, but the consequences of rejecting it just don't seem to count for much.

89 posted on 03/08/2002 12:40:48 PM PST by general_re
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To: Snidely Whiplash
A comrade of mine works as a specialist in biology. Particularly with the in vitro process. He is one of two people in our entire state who performs the specific duties required of his job.

As a degreed person in his field of expertise, he says that there is absolutely no substance to the statement you just made. If anything, his daily lab work has shown him that evolutionary theory is unnecessary to perform his duties.

I understand that people who believe in evolution will appeal to their own authoritative specialists in natural sciences. Might I suggest, as I'm sure that others have with CREVO, that what we are arguing about is the interpretation of the data?

People who are inclined to believe in evolution because that's what "Dr. So-n-So says" are just as wrong as those who say that there is no credence to the study of evolution.

Personally, I believe that science is at its best when it is like the marketplace...competing theories. I think that all theories of beginnings should be studied in school, including Intelligent Design (which implies some deity but not necessarily the Christian God), Creation Classic (Genesis/Flood Geology), & evolution (Lamarkian, Darwinian, et. al.).

Today, however, scientists treat evolution as the "Holy Grail" at the expense of competing (and, yes, scientifically valid) interpretations of the available data. Personally, after reviewing the various theories, I am of the opinion that "Creation Classic" is the model that best fits the available information.

90 posted on 03/08/2002 12:45:59 PM PST by Elijah27
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To: Elijah27
Might I suggest, as I'm sure that others have with CREVO, that what we are arguing about is the interpretation of the data?

That's good stuff man!

91 posted on 03/08/2002 12:52:04 PM PST by Frapster
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To: RadioAstronomer;William Wallace;Dad was my hero
they are common sense Americans who simply want schools to teach the truth about the serious scientific problems with evolutionary theory.

Got any examples?

Sure...

You ask me for examples of creationists who simply want the schools to teach the weaknesses of evolution. Examples of course can be representative of a large population or representative of a fringe view. I submit these examples are representative of a majority of American people. The American Scientific Affiliation is a scientific organization of Christians, many of whom are creationsists of one form or another. Their site is here...

ASA Website

A prepresentative statement of what both the evolutionists and the creationists in teh ASA can agree on. Which is what I said and what you asked for examples of...

In the current climate of controversy over science teaching in public schools, stretching the term evolution beyond its range of scientific usefulness promotes the establishment of evolutionary naturalism. Besides inviting reaction from proponents of scientific creationism, such careless usage also erodes support of sound science education among the broader population of theists, to the detriment of the whole scientific enterprise.

You have to read this article for a long while before you find out exactly what the statement of the Alabama board of education said. ABC News Evolutionist Propoganda

Here is the statement according to the article. I frankly find it to say exactly what most of us who are Christians and Creationists of one stripe or another would like to see as the over-riding tone of scientific education in public schools.

**********

This textbook discusses evolution, a controversial theory some scientists present as a scientific explanation for the origin of living things, such as plants, animals and humans.

No one was present when life first appeared on earth. Therefore, any statement about life's origins should be considered as theory, not fact.

The word "evolution" may refer to many types of change. Evolution describes changes that occur within a species. (White moths, for example, may "evolve" into gray moths.) This process is microevolution, which can be observed and described as fact. Evolution may also refer to the change of one living thing to another, such as reptiles into birds. This process, called macroevolution, has never been observed and should be considered a theory. Evolution also refers to the unproven belief that random, undirected forces produced a world of living things.

There are many unanswered questions about the origin of life which are not mention in your textbook, including:

— Why did the major groups of animals suddenly appear in the fossil record (known as the "Cambrian Explosion")?

— Why have no new major groups of living things appeared in the fossil record for a long time?

— Why do major groups of plants and animals have no transitional forms in the fossil record?

— How did you and all living things come to possess such a complete and complex set of "instructions" for building a living body?

Study hard and keep an open mind. Someday, you may contribute to the theories of how living things appeared on earth.

Its a little weak in that it seems to limit the concept of "fact" to that which can be repeatedly observed. I'm not sure that is a fully satisfactory definition, but the overall tone of this disclaimer shouldn't scare anyone, unless of course they know they are overstating their cases.

Rippin

92 posted on 03/08/2002 12:58:27 PM PST by Rippin
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To: RadioAstronomer
Same tired old arguments that have been debunked so many times they belong in a hall of fame.

Surely, you meant to write: "Hall of Shame"....

93 posted on 03/08/2002 1:04:48 PM PST by longshadow
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To: longshadow
History quack Marxists went quiet not too long ago...

you would have thought they would have taken their... clergy-witch doctors---with them!

94 posted on 03/08/2002 1:16:03 PM PST by f.Christian
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To: longshadow
To keep people from thinking--learning and stop evolution from dying...

you would have to shut down the internet wouldn't you.

The Truth will penetrate the debunked false science--monopoly...state stealth religion--pol-theo-fat-bureau-cats!

SHHHHH...(evolution is a hoax-joke)!

95 posted on 03/08/2002 1:45:50 PM PST by f.Christian
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To: Dimensio
Referring to your critique of 5 and 6: 5. Cat from dog argument. You state that:

More likely they shared a common ancestor somewhere far down the line and that ancestor's offspring split down a path, one ending up at the "dog" line and the other at "cat" (and possibly untold others going elsewhere). In theory you might be able to select and breed a dog, taking the offspring with the closest matching DNA, and keep breeding them until you get back to the common ancestor, then trying to get a cat from the subsequent offspring...when you have a few million years free to try the experiment, let me know.

So what you're saying here is that they "more likely" shared a common ancestor at some unknown point." Convenient that this is an unprovable assumption as your strongest explanation for this. You also state that this must occur over millions of years, that many generations are needed to be able to get a feasible hybrid from it. I hope you realize that the evolutionists have backpedalled away from this viewpoint because of the lack of all the transitional forms that should have been discovered to support this type of change, but that do not exist. They now have modified their position that these evolutionary changes occur very quickly BECAUSE of the lack of transitional forms. Lack of evidence now means evoultion occurs faster than previously thought.

Point 6. You state: The scientific principle demands observable, repeatable results. Show me where scientists created life out of nothing. Oh dear, the common fallacy of mixing evolution and abiogenesis. Sorry, but evolution is a theory dealing with existing life forms, it makes no claims as to where that life originated.

I can't even believe you believe what you're saying - you are a truly rare evolutionist. Every one I've ever talked with believes that single celled organisms eveloved out of amino acid brines with electrochemical reactions, and evolutionists, by their own origin trees, have illustrated so by showing cellular organisms at the "root" of the evolutionary tree. Evolutionary theory supports the evolving of life from simple, single celled organisms to more complex ones. My science books I had in high school and biology classes promoted this as evolutionary fact. Frankly, I have personally heard a college professor in a lecture admit he believed we came from rocks.

96 posted on 03/08/2002 2:05:29 PM PST by Secret Agent Man
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To: f.Christian
Good News For The Day

‘'Do not worry, saying, "What shall we ear?" Or, "What shall we drink?" Or, "What shall we ear?" For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.’ (Matthew 6:31-33)

"Jesus' words contradict the mood of the age. Applied science has given people in developed lands and enormous increase in wealth. For the most part, the power to acquire property has not filled those people with contentment. One of the first acts of a person who comes into money is to load himself or herself with a pile of things that makes life fretful and death difficult."

"For Jesus, life was much more that material security. He viewed the abundant life as one in which spirit reigned supreme over things. He never asked everyone to give up their possessions, but he did ask it of some, because their 'things' were destroying them. He would ask it of many today. There is no salvation for some, except in the abandonment of their riches."

"The virtue in forsaking wealth does not lie in what is given up, but in what is gained. It is the secret of inner possession. What moths and rust can get at, what thieves can steal, are not treasures at all. Christ taught that the internal must transcend the external. Character needs to come before gain; duty before pleasure. These are spiritual qualities that not even death can take away from those who own them."

"According to Jesus, life needs to be continually re-evaluated in the light of the highest ideal. The kingdom of God must take pride of the place above the kingdom of the senses."

"When forces are aggressively working to accumulate wealth, when property and power is praised, society undervalues itself. Spiritual axioms are dethroned and the people perish. When what is intrinsically pre-eminent is given its place, every other true instinct finds satisfaction. It was so among the Puritans. 'One overpowering sentiment had subjugated to itself pity, hatred, ambition and fear. They had their smiles and their tears, their raptures and their sorrows, but not for the things of this world. The intensity of their feeling on one subject, made them tranquil on every other."

"May God... (Truth)--be with you and me."

97 posted on 03/08/2002 2:07:21 PM PST by f.Christian
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To: Doctor Stochastic
Fine, if you don't like my numbers on rotation, address all my other points. I am willing to be corrected when I make an error - much more so than evolutionists who fake fossil evidence, have it printed in millions of textbooks and museums, only to be found out later, and not correct it.

I would really be interested in your responses to my logic questions, because nobody seems to want to answer those.

98 posted on 03/08/2002 2:10:16 PM PST by Secret Agent Man
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To: Secret Agent Man
Every one I've ever talked with believes that single celled organisms eveloved out of amino acid brines with electrochemical reactions, and evolutionists, by their own origin trees, have illustrated so by showing cellular organisms at the "root" of the evolutionary tree. Evolutionary theory supports the evolving of life from simple, single celled organisms to more complex ones. My science books I had in high school and biology classes promoted this as evolutionary fact. Frankly, I have personally heard a college professor in a lecture admit he believed we came from rocks.

Exactly. I decided to read the big dog of evolutionary apologetics, Richard Dawkins a few years back, and he includes the whole something from nothing argument as a seemless sleeve on his evolutionary garb.

Man he just can't stand that Gould fellow. Darned secularist who just won't spout the company line.

Rippin

99 posted on 03/08/2002 2:19:04 PM PST by Rippin
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To: Rippin; SecretAgentMan; f.Christian; longshadow; RadioAstronomer; rdb3; Dimensio
These bunch of doofuses are spouting the same crap that has been answered countless times before. These people remain ignorant by choice. I would not be surprised if spinning the globe up periodically by God's hand and the instantaneous speed of light arguments don't pop up next. O'l Sparky's college of ignoramus knowlege (aka wiggling and screaming preachers) is spreading.
100 posted on 03/08/2002 2:50:26 PM PST by Aracelis
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