Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Common Creationist Arguments
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Creationism/Arguments/index.shtml ^

Posted on 03/08/2002 7:55:48 AM PST by JediGirl

Common Creationist Arguments

Religious Bigotry

"I pledge allegiance to the Christian flag, and to the Saviour, for whose Kingdom it stands, one Saviour, crucified, risen, and coming again, with life and liberty for all who believe."- Dan Quayle, participating in a modified Pledge of Allegiance at the "Reclaiming America" conference in Fort Lauderdale, Florida, 1994. Quoted from Eternal Hostility: The Struggle Between Theocracy and Democracy, by Frederick Clarkson. According to Dan Quayle and the other hate mongers at this conference, only those who believe deserve the right to life and liberty. I guess that means the rest of us can die in chains, just as we did in the Dark Ages.

Religious bigotry is at the heart of fundamentalism, and Christian fundamentalism is in turn the heart of the so-called "creation science" movement. In its various forms, creationist bigotry usually incorporates one or more of 3 basic premises:

  1. If evolution theory is wrong, then the only alternative is Biblical creationism. All dissimilar creation myths are invalid.

  2. The Bible is representative of all religious creation stories, and Christianity is representative of all "major" religions. Whenever someone speaks of "religion", "spirituality", and "mysticism" we should assume that he is talking about Christianity.

  3. Non-Christian beliefs are based on corrupted, immoral motivations, under the influence of Satan.

Every one of these premises is both indefensible and incredibly offensive, yet all of those assumptions are very common among creaionists, for whom it doesn't even seem to matter that their "scientific theory" would be the only theory in the history of science that requires faith in a particular religion.

Suggested Tactics

Educate Them About Other Religions. Some famous atheists have half-jokingly quipped in the past that "the solution to Christianity is education". While that may be a bit harsh, it is certainly fair to say that creationist misconceptions about the universality of their particular creation myth are best dispelled with information. Concrete information about the true beliefs of humanism (as opposed to the Christian fundamentalist strawman stereotype of selfish hedonists) and the specifics of other religions' creation myths (as opposed to the creationist assumption that they either follow Judaism or they're Satan worshippers) is the best way to break through a creationist's intellectual defense shield of xenophobia and religious egocentrism.

Examples follow:

"If creation theory has no independent basis, then why do all the world's religions have similar stories of the Creation and the Flood? Why do scientists insist on assuming that all of the world's religions are wrong? Evolution theory is nothing more than an organized assault upon religion."

This person confuses "religion" for "Christianity", by blindly assuming that every religion in the world is incompatible with evolution theory. In reality, many of the world's religions are quite compatible with evolution theory (some even provide support for it). Creationists who propose this argument are simply demonstrating ignorance of other religions. This is not surprising; throughout most of their history, Christians were not only reluctant to study other religions, but they actually tried to obliterate them by force, through torture, massacres, and destruction of cultural artifacts such as libraries and temples. Today, Christianity has generally improved upon its heinous past, and many Christians' value systems are quite similar to those of humanists. Such Christians no longer murder and torture "heretics", and some of them have even chosen to open their minds not only to science, but also to the richness and diversity of world history, as opposed to a narrow minded focus on European Christian history.

Progressive Christians tend to focus on Jesus' common-sense message of reciprocity, meaning that you should love your neighbour and treat others as you would have them treat you. This is known as the "Golden Rule", and while Christian egocentrics tend to act as though it is their exclusive intellectual property, versions of it are actually found in the ancient writings of virtually all the world's cultures. Of course, in order to live by this rule, they must downplay or refute the parts of the Bible which encourage intolerance and misogynism, sometimes by simply ignoring them and sometimes by arguing that the Golden Rule overrides them. The term "humanist Christian" is often thought of as an oxymoron, but that isn't necessarily the case; humanism and atheism are not synonymous. Humanism is about placing the good of humankind and the good of your fellow human above all else, and a humanist Christian could easily make the argument that the basic principles of humanism are highly compatible with the principles that Jesus tried to outline in the New Testament. However, unlike Jesus or God, humanism makes no value judgement on the basis of religion; it is equally accepting of Buddhists, Taoists, Christians, Hindus, Wiccans, Muslims, and others, including atheists. It is the only system of values which is so broadly inclusive, and therefore, it is the only system of values upon which governments should be based.

However, this means it is also anathema to certain Christians (read: right-wing fundamentalist fanatics), who have chosen instead to close their minds, cling to the past, and fight a seemingly never-ending propaganda war against science and humanism (some, like Pat Robertson, still defend the morality of Old Testament atrocities such as the slaughter of Palestinian women and children).

I remember once watching one of those "political talk shows" and seeing a Christian fundamentalist explaining that school prayer was necessary in order to introduce "spirituality" to children (for some reason, she felt it was necessary for the state to perform this function, rather than the parents). When queried about the obvious religious bigotry inherent in this approach, and its implications for religious freedom of non-Christians, she confidently replied that since all of the world's religions from Judaism to Islam to Christianity are very similar, sharing the same God, it wouldn't be a serious problem. And if they insisted on being difficult, they could always simply "opt out" (and in so doing, stand apart from the rest of the class, which is a great way to make a child feel welcome).

I remember being disgusted at her attitude and amazed at the fact that no one else on the panel seemed to take offense at her arrogance and bigotry. This kind of obtuse navel-gazing ignorance is a classic European cultural mindset which has unfortunately been adopted by many Americans (for example, they know the "yin/yang" symbol, but they have no idea that it is actually derived from the Taoist religion; they think it's just a "Chinese philosophy thing", or that it has something to do with kung fu).

I suggest that Christian egocentrists go to the library and borrow a book on the world's other religions before presuming to speak for them. There are billions of Hindus and Buddhists in the world, and none of them would want their children to feel like outcasts for not participating in school prayer to the Christian God. Hindus are even polytheistic, even though Christian egocentrists tend to believe that monotheism is somehow "more advanced" than polytheism (in reality, both monotheistic and polytheistic religions are traceable back to the dawn of recorded history). There are at least five different types of creation myth:

  1. Creation through Emergence: a pre-existing chaotic universe or netherworld gains form and substance in a gradual process. This type of creation myth is usually suggestive of slow maturation, or growth, as opposed to a single titanic event. The process might even be on-going and eternal (much like evolution). Zuni religious writings describe "unfinished creatures", slowly developing and growing "more manlike". Australian aboriginal creation myths describe primitive human-like creatures haphazardly forming out of plants and animal parts and then being moulded into finished humans by the gods. These types of religions (of which the American Navajo religion is yet another example) tend to emphasize the spirit of communion with the land and with the animals, since we came from them. This is a sharp contrast with Christianity and its past doctrines of human dominion over the animal kingdom.

  2. Creation through Birth: the Earth or the universe is quite literally born, either from a primordial mother or from two divine parents. The Aztec and Babylonian religions are examples of this type of creation myth.

  3. Creation from a Cosmic Egg: the universe hatches from an egg. This egg may be created by the gods, or it may be a god, or it may contain gods, along with the raw material necessary for the universe. The Chinese god Pan Gu was hatched from such an egg. In the Hindu religion, the universe was created through the breaking of a cosmic egg, which had shone as brilliantly as a sun and from which Brahma emerged.

  4. Creation by "Earth divers": the Earth is retrieved from primordial waters. It may be either retrieved intact or in pieces which are to be assembled by god(s). Many ancient central European tribal religions incorporated this type of creation myth.

  5. Creation by Supreme Being: a deity predates the universe. His power is absolute, and he creates the universe from his mind. Supreme deities are usually sky gods, for which the remoteness of the heavens generates awe and a sense of inscrutability among believers. Creationists invariably assume this to be the only type of creation myth.

"Let us break through some of the inhibitions that have existed to talk together across the flimsy lines of separation of faith, to talk together, to study together, to pray together, and ultimately to sing together His Holy name."- Senator Joseph Lieberman, speaking at Fellowship Chapel in Detroit while running for Vice President, Aug. 27, 2000 (like many Judeo-Christian bigots, he assumes all faiths share the same God). Quoted from AA News #808.

If you examine the world's various creation myths, you may notice a very interesting fact: many of them are more easily reconciled with biology and cosmology than you might expect. In fact, the "Creation through Emergence" story is startlingly similar to evolution theory, and "Creation from a Cosmic Egg" is strongly reminiscent of Big Bang theory. Moreover, a very common thread in various mythologies is the pre-existent chaos, in which a universe already exists before the "Creation" but it is formless and dark, and the gods merely take this pre-existing matter and transform it into the modern world. This is a sharp contrast to the creationist assumption that creation myths are all predicated upon a supreme being who creates the universe with a mere thought.

Does evolution theory represent an "assault upon religion?" Not necessarily. It does, however, represent the scientific conclusion that Biblical fundamentalism has no foundation whatsoever in logic and observation. Creationists interpret this as an attack against "religion" because they think they stand for all of the world's religions, despite their ideological differences and their long history of trying to wipe out those other religions.

"The only way to arrive at evolution theory is from a close-minded secular, humanistic mindset."

And why is humanism bad, particularly when we speak of science? Humanism, as it applies to science, is the notion that it is possible to understand the universe through the reasoning faculties of the human mind. It is part of the philosophical foundation of science! How can a legitimate scientific theory not be based on a humanistic mindset? The fact that a theory is "humanistic" is hardly a condemnation, but creationists are so accustomed to speaking of "humanism" in a perjorative sense that they instinctively assume everyone else sees the term in the same negative way.

The scientific method leaves no room for creationist nonsense. Scientists are supposed to confine their analyses strictly to the bounds of observation and reason. Scientists are supposed to assume that every phenomenon in the universe has a natural mechanism. Scientists are supposed to discount supernatural explanations for observed phenomena. That is the scientific method, in which all phenomena in the universe are grouped into those we understand and those we have yet to understand. There is no third option of supernatural explanations, nor should there be. If supernatural explanations were acceptable scientific explanations for all unknowns, then mankind would never have developed any science at all.

Scientists are often accused of being "close-minded" for doing this. The term "close-minded" has a perjorative implication, but it is a relative term. When we say that others are "close-minded", we usually mean that they are close-minded to whatever we're trying to push on them. Scientists are close-minded to the supernatural, but they are open-minded to observations and rational theories. Mystics, on the other hand, are open minded to mysticism, pseudoscience, and the supernatural, but they are close-minded to the scientific method. This contrast of competing philosophies is nothing new, but an increasingly large number of mystics want to upset the balance. They want to force scientists to consider supernatural theories alongside natural mechanisms; in effect, they want to destroy science by removing the scientific method and replacing it with the methods of mysticism.

"Evolutionists are just atheists who want to believe that there's no God so that they won't have to obey His laws, even though they know the truth, deep down. In fact, the decay of family values, the explosion of pornography, and the general decline in societal mores can be directly attributed to humanist teachings such as evolution theory and moral relativism, which basically encourages people to follow their own selfish interests instead of obeying traditional values and morals."

This is by far the most offensive, arrogant, insulting, and hateful creationist argument in existence: religious bigotry at its worst. If you are a religious person and you don't see what's wrong with this statement, then try asking yourself how you would feel if someone accused all Jews or all Hindus of being immoral and selfish. Try asking yourself how you would feel if someone assumed that all Buddhists were secretly Christians but were feverishly trying to deny the truth to themselves. Do you see the problem? This argument could simply be dismissed as fallacious, on the grounds that morality has nothing to do with the scientific validity of evolution theory. However, that would probably do little to silence the critics, whose attacks on evolution theory often start with this bizarre "moral argument".

"We're going to bring back God and the Bible and drive the gods of secular humanism right out of the public schools of America."- Pat Buchanan, at an anti-gay rally in Des Moines, Iowa, February 11, 1996 (it apparently doesn't occur to him that secular humanism is a philosophy rather than a religion, and as such, has no "gods", nor does it occur to him that in order to drive secular humanism out of public schools, they will have to abolish all science classses).

For some reason it is considered perfectly acceptable to hold bigoted views of atheists, particularly in America, where the flames of religious hatred are fanned daily by hate-mongers such as Pat Robertson and the rest of the so-called "right-wing fundamentalist movement". Religious leaders are fond of saying that atheism is every bit as much a religion as Christianity, Judaism, or Hinduism, in an obvious attempt to contradict the secular interpretation of atheism as an absence of religion. But if they truly feel that atheism is a religion, then why don't they treat atheists with the same religious tolerance that most of them preach for the "real" religions? Why is it acceptable to accuse atheists as a group of being amoral, or selfish, or hedonistic, or anti-family, or decadent?

If you listen carefully, you will find that anti-atheist hatred positively drips from the mouth of every preacher. Every minister. Every religious television show. If there is a modern Devil according to the fundamentalists, its name is secularism. Secularism is held responsible for everything from violence to divorce, rape, war, drug use, and any other imaginable social problem. It is the convenient scapegoat upon which every societal problem can be summarily blamed, without evidence or argument.

Atheists are Public Enemy #1 according to this mindset. If secularism is deemed responsible for everything the fundamentalists consider unpleasant or undesirable, then it's only natural to blame the members of this "cult": the atheists. It doesn't matter that there is no statistical variation in the crime rates between atheists and Christians. It doesn't matter that atheists are actually less likely to divorce than Christians. All that matters is that atheists think differently, and the persistent Crusade mentality of the fundamentalist deems all other systems of thought to be targets of enmity, hatred, and if possible, obliteration.

The historical fact is that these religious zealots are throwing stones from glass houses. The history of religion is anything but a noble one, and the union of church and state (which is what the creationists are pushing for, with the agenda to insinuate their religion into the schools) has invariably resulted in widespread oppression and human rights violations. In fact, the union of church and state continues to cause such problems today, as seen most dramatically in the resurgent Islamic fundamentalist governments of the Middle East, where women are being stoned to death for committing adultery or trying to find work. See the Religion and Morality page if you're interested in knowing more about this subject.

"You cannot produce one conclusive piece of evidence to prove the theory of evolution, yet you deny creationism! You are clearly being dogmatic."

This argument is sometimes accompanied by gratuitous publicity stunts, eg. there's at least one person offering a reward for anyone who can produce a piece of scientific evidence which he regards as conclusive proof of evolution. However, the basic premise falls apart on three levels.

  1. It implicitly assumes that if evolution theory cannot be "proven", then creationism wins by default. This is a false dilemma fallacy (artificially narrowing the choices). Even if you refuse to accept the overwhelming evidence for evolution theory, who's to say that the Earth must have been created in six days by one supreme being? Why six days? Why the one specific god described in the Jewish Bible? Why couldn't it have been created through a collaborative effort by many gods in a pantheistic religion? Why couldn't it have been created by the universal energy described by Taoist-style religions? Why couldn't it have been created by the pink unicorn? Why couldn't Earth itself be a god, as described in some of the "Earth mother" religions? Christians have a nasty tendency to forget that theirs is not the only religion in the world.

  2. It demands "proof" of a scientific theory. However, the act of demanding "proof" merely betrays ignorance of scientific methods. Unlike mathematical theories, scientific theories are not "proven". Competing theories are judged on their consistency with observation, and the best theory wins (science itself is an evolutionary process in that respect). If science demanded absolute "proof" of theories, then we wouldn't have any theories at all. Even the theory of gravity can't be "proven"; it can only be shown to be consistent with observation.

  3. The person who makes this argument sets himself up as the sole arbiter of any evidence that comes his way. He doesn't want to let "qualified biologists" judge (no surprise, since they won't produce the conclusions he's looking for), nor does he explain exactly what would qualify as conclusive evidence. By using himself as the arbiter and refusing to describe the proof he's looking for, he deliberately sets an impossible standard.

"I have a standing offer of $250,000 to anyone who can give any empirical evidence (scientific proof) for evolution. My $250,000 offer demonstrates that the hypothesis of evolution is nothing more than a religious belief."- Kent Hovind (notice how he doesn't realize there's no such thing as "scientific proof")

After being pressed for a full explanation of how to collect the $250,000 reward, he clarified his position: "In order to collect the money you must 'Prove beyond reasonable doubt that the process of evolution (The universe came into being by itself by purely natural processes (known as evolution) so that no appeal to the supernatural is needed.) is the only possible way the observed phenomena (the universe, planets, life and mankind) could have come into existence.' If you want everyone to pay for this silly theory of evolution to be taught then the burden of proof is on you."- Kent Hovind. Notice how he thinks evolution theory deals with the origins of the universe rather than the gradual change of biological structures (gross strawman fallacy), and also notice how he thinks a valid scientific theory must be the "only possible" explanation for a phenomenon (gross misrepresentation of scientific method). In reality, a valid theory is the one which most closely fits the facts, and Occam's Razor is used as a tie-breaker if necessary. Since an infinite number of theories can be generated for any given phenomenon (hence the need for Occam's Razor), it is impossible to fulfill his requirements for any scientific theory, even the theory of gravity.

This kind of argument is a classic example of the religious egocentrism that we have sadly come to expect from creationists. It assumes that creationism logically follows if evolution theory cannot be "proven" to their satisfaction. It contains the utterly absurd assumption that if there were no such thing as evolution theory, then a researcher would independently arrive at Biblical creationism, even if he were not schooled in Judeo-Christian thought! In the end, it is a mere rhetorical ploy, barely worthy of rebuttal.

As an aside, the tactic of demanding proof and then setting oneself up as the arbiter of that proof is also used by Holocaust deniers. If you are faced with this ploy (on the part of either creationists or holocaust deniers), a good tactic is to simply ask "what would you accept as evidence?" If a subject change is attempted, simply force the subject back to that central question: "what would you accept as evidence?"

You may be surprised to discover that when pushed, your opponent will have no answer. He will either become evasive or suggest a nonsensical form of evidence such as "direct observation of the moment of abiogenesis, four billion years ago", as if a time machine could be built for this purpose. Scientific theories are based on analysis of whatever evidence we can obtain, not an obstinate insistence upon particular forms of evidence which we can't obtain.

The natural creationist objection is to claim that indirect observations "don't count", but in reality, despite their ignorant expectations, countless scientific observations are indirect in nature. For example, we know that other stars in the universe have planets indirectly (through observation of gravitational perturbations) even though we can't travel there and see these planets for ourselves. We know that the Sun is powered by nuclear fusion indirectly (through observation of its mass, chemical composition, and output) even though we can't observe this process directly. We know about electrons indirectly (through their interaction with other forms of matter and energy) even though they're too small to see, even with a microscope. And finally, we know that life began on Earth billions of years ago (through observation of fossil patterns as well as geographical distribution of modern species) even though we can't travel back through time and watch it happen.



TOPICS: Miscellaneous; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: crevolist; sasu
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 181-200201-220221-240 ... 281-299 next last
To: Dog Gone
There are many people who believe in the theory of evolution who also believe in God and consider themselves Christians.

One has to wonder how Christians can agree with evolution when the purpose of evolution - an attack on Christian beliefs - is so brilliantly displayed by this article.

201 posted on 03/10/2002 8:10:12 PM PST by gore3000
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: Vercingetorix
There is plenty of evidence that virulent Christian sects of the type that need to have their knives blunted are on the rise in this country.

The above is a malicious slander on Christians which you in no way can back up.

202 posted on 03/10/2002 8:24:55 PM PST by gore3000
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 157 | View Replies]

To: longshadow
"I recall the Soviet Politboro used to periodically hold purges to flush their colleagues out of power, after which all the old "official" photographs taken of the Politboro standing on the reviewing stand during the May Day parades would be "revised"

Interestingly, these mass murderers who killed some 50 million of their own citizens were atheists.

203 posted on 03/10/2002 8:28:46 PM PST by gore3000
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 161 | View Replies]

To: Junior
Instead of spamming each and every thread,

I have seen medved post that article quite a few times, but I have yet to see any sort of intelligent response to it by the evos. Perhaps if you folk tried to refute the statements made in it instead of complaining about his posting it, he might stop.

204 posted on 03/10/2002 8:33:23 PM PST by gore3000
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 167 | View Replies]

To: Exnihilo
And it is of course obvious that the fossil record is woefully inadequate.

Funny thing about evolutionists is that they admit the fossil record is inadequate themselves but they continue to make categorical statements proclaiming evolution to be true based on the very fossil record which they find inadequate!

Not only are there tremendous gaps in the fossil record, but also fossils tell us very little about a species. Fossils (except in very special circumstances which can be counted on the fingers of one hand) do not provide DNA. Fossils often do not provide a complete skeleton, just bits and pieces of the specimen. Fossils more importantly do not provide evidence of 99% of what makes up an individual, what makes each species, each individual different. With so many pieces missing, paleontology is just a game of who can make up the most fantastic interpretation for the smallest evidence possible.

205 posted on 03/10/2002 8:45:05 PM PST by gore3000
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 175 | View Replies]

To: gore3000
You've "never seen" any response to your own assertions, either, yet they've been made countless times. Medved's been doing this far longer; we've simply grown tired of covering the same ground time and again. But, just to cover your assertion, VadeRetro relinked to his refutations of medved's postings of a few years back.
206 posted on 03/11/2002 1:43:52 AM PST by Junior
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 204 | View Replies]

To: Snidely Whiplash
Uh...you do realize that I specified macro evolution, Mr. Smarty Pants?
207 posted on 03/11/2002 2:53:48 AM PST by Psalm 73
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 87 | View Replies]

To: general_re
Oh, you, too - well, like I just said:
Uh...you do realize that I specified macroevolution?
You must show us HARD evidence of a wide vatiety of true transitional species, you cannot keep saying that they exist but we just haven't found them yet!
208 posted on 03/11/2002 2:59:10 AM PST by Psalm 73
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 89 | View Replies]

To: Junior
"At least evolution is constantly being tested by the scientific method."

Oh, you mean like repeatable experiments? Write it down, show me, tell me, (and I'm NOT talking micro-evolution like fruit flies, etc).
Evolution is taught is public schools like it's theology, crammed down our kids throats like it is actual proven science - IT IS JUST A THEORY - at least they could acknowledge that there are serious questions to this theory.

209 posted on 03/11/2002 3:15:08 AM PST by Psalm 73
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 121 | View Replies]

To: Junior
You've "never seen" any response to your own assertions, either,

That's correct, evolutionists are unwilling to discuss the facts of evolution, to provide proof for their assertions. They would rather keep chanting the mantra "evolution is true" than to show that it is true.

210 posted on 03/11/2002 4:28:03 AM PST by gore3000
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 206 | View Replies]

To: gore3000
One has to wonder how Christians can agree with evolution when the purpose of evolution - an attack on Christian beliefs - is so brilliantly displayed by this article.

This article was markedly anti-Christian. No doubt about that.

But the author doesn't speak for everyone who accepts evolution as fact, any more than the Rev. Al Sharpton speaks for all Christians.

The purpose of evolution is not to attack Christian beliefs, and I can't imagine that you meant that statement literally. The Theory seeks to explain all available evidence on the basis of the evidence, not any pre-existing religious or theological belief. The theory is indifferent to Christian beliefs in the same way that the theories of gravity or relativity are.

I assume that you see evolution as an attack on your Christian beliefs, but this is certainly a case where that judgment is in the eye of the beholder, namely you.

I don't have any problem believing in both evolution and Christianity. That requires me to believe that the creation accounts in the book of Genesis are allegorical, but that would be obvious to me regardless.

Christians can easily accept evolution as fact. I'd argue that they should, except that I'm indifferent as to what people privately choose to believe.

211 posted on 03/11/2002 4:58:57 AM PST by Dog Gone
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 201 | View Replies]

To: Psalm 73
IT IS JUST A THEORY

A Theory, in science, indicates that the subject in question is supported by observation and/or experimentation. That is why Relativity is just a theory, why quantum mechanics is just a theory, etc. The word you are looking for is "hypothesis." Evolution stopped being a hypothesis a long time ago and became a theory.

Sure there are difficulties with evolution -- but it is over the methods of evolution, not over the existence of the phenomenon.

212 posted on 03/11/2002 5:09:59 AM PST by Junior
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 209 | View Replies]

To: gore3000
We've given you oodles of new information. You simply choose to ignore it. What more can I say?
213 posted on 03/11/2002 5:11:39 AM PST by Junior
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 210 | View Replies]

To: gore3000
"The above is a malicious slander on Christians which you in no way can back up." -- Gore3000

Here is a quotation from a book on the subject. Feel free to examine the book and check out the author's original sources. Judicial Watch also has information on this movement if you are interested. It calls itself the Christian Identity Movement.

"This system of beliefs is called Christian Identity, and adherence to it is probably the single greatest common denominator among all the various fragmented factions of the radical right wing in America. It is practiced by the neo-Nazis of the Aryan Nations, by the leaders of the Militia of Montana, and by remnants of the Ku Klux Klan in the South.

Its foremost preacher is the Reverend Pete Peters, a Colorado-based minister whose 1992 gathering in Estes Park - drawing such luminaries as John Trochmann, Ku Klux Klan leader Louis Beam, and onetime Pat Buchanan adviser Larry Pratt - is often credited with being the chief formative event behind the militia movement.

The core beliefs of Christian Identity are so far astray from those of mainstream Christianity - and so repellent to average Americans - that they induce in the religion's followers a cult-like closed mindset: a sense of persecution coupled with self-righteousness that is supported by the group's social peers. True believers - often drawn from the ranks of the disenfranchised - will not be dissuaded by any amount of logic and reason.

They live in a kind of alternative universe, complex and wholly unlike anything in mainstream life. It is populated by soulless non-humans, satanic conspirators and a handful of true Christians who abide by ''God's law.'' By closing off the other world, they reinforce each other's beliefs in the confines of their tight social circle."

The Patriot Movement and the Pacific Northwest, by David A. Neiwert, Washington State University Press, 1999, pages 11-12

214 posted on 03/11/2002 5:28:14 AM PST by Vercingetorix
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 202 | View Replies]

To: Psalm 73
"Uh...you do realize that I specified macro evolution, Mr. Smarty Pants?"

I don't see the point of accepting microevolution but denying macroevolution. Microevolution occurring over a long period of time is basically all that's necessary to produce macroevolution. It's like a ripple effect - small changes or discrepancies at the beginning of the process can produce big changes down the road.

Regards,
Snidely

215 posted on 03/11/2002 5:30:25 AM PST by Snidely Whiplash
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 207 | View Replies]

To: gore3000
Your tirade on Clinton was in response to:

Specifically, it [Piltdown Man] was the sole scrap of evidence for the "Out of England" theory, just as that famous pig's tooth was the sole evidence for the "Out of Nebraska" theory. Evolution actually gives you a framework that says some things shouldn't be found. If they turn up you either have a hoax, a misinterpretation, or something is really wrong with what we think we know.
The point you don't answer (because it never got through your anti-cognitive dissonance filter) is that creationism/ID can make no such claim. There's only one story to creationism, "Goddidit." No data falsify this claim. No data are excluded. Anything that happens is "within the realm of the predictions of creationism." Anything might happen or have happened, as the Arabs put it, "Inshallah!" (If Allah wills!)
216 posted on 03/11/2002 5:34:00 AM PST by VadeRetro
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 200 | View Replies]

To: gore3000
Looking it over, and remembering you, I realize that even now the final point of my 216 is unspoken and that won't do. It all has to be laid out stark as black and white or you for one will make a point of not seeing. (Just as, for instance, you can't seem to see my frequently repeated requests for you to back up your claim that DNA evidence proves hippos unrelated to cetaceans. We both need to get it to AndrewC at once so he'll stop contradicting you all the time.)

Anyway, if any evidence at all can turn up and that's OK, as is certainly true with creationism/ID--nothing falsifies--then your alleged theory isn't a theory at all, or even a decent hypothesis. It has no implications. It tells you nothing about the real, observable, testable world.

Your side likes to carp about evolution being "only a theory." It is a theory in the good, scientific sense of the word, a theory buttressed with a huge catalog of factual evidence.

Creationism is not a theory, and it's certainly not a fact. It's not about anything you can ever test or see. Thus, it doesn't belong in any science class, anywhere.

217 posted on 03/11/2002 6:58:07 AM PST by VadeRetro
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 216 | View Replies]

To: Junior
"Sure there are difficulties with evolution -- but it is over the methods of evolution, not over the existence of the phenomenon."

There is no concrete evidence that Human Beings are descended from anything other than Humans.
Macro-evolution is NOT a fact, it is a supposition, but it is presented as a foregone conclusion.
Are there problems with Creation Theory? You bet.
Much of what we believe is based striclty on faith - much like those who believe we are descended from simpler life forms.

218 posted on 03/11/2002 7:02:11 AM PST by Psalm 73
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 212 | View Replies]

To: Snidely Whiplash
"I don't see the point of accepting microevolution but denying macroevolution."

Sure, because one takes place within the species, and modifies the existing; and the other creats a whole new species.
The quantity of new information required is just staggering, and where there is proof of the one, there is no witness to a brand new, unique species coming into being.
If we can only believe what we can see and measure, how can you accept the total macro-evolution theory as fact?

219 posted on 03/11/2002 7:07:37 AM PST by Psalm 73
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 215 | View Replies]

To: JediGirl
Wow, hyperbolic accusations sure do make the point.
220 posted on 03/11/2002 7:09:08 AM PST by lds23
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 181-200201-220221-240 ... 281-299 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson