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Common Creationist Arguments
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Creationism/Arguments/index.shtml ^

Posted on 03/08/2002 7:55:48 AM PST by JediGirl

Common Creationist Arguments

Religious Bigotry

"I pledge allegiance to the Christian flag, and to the Saviour, for whose Kingdom it stands, one Saviour, crucified, risen, and coming again, with life and liberty for all who believe."- Dan Quayle, participating in a modified Pledge of Allegiance at the "Reclaiming America" conference in Fort Lauderdale, Florida, 1994. Quoted from Eternal Hostility: The Struggle Between Theocracy and Democracy, by Frederick Clarkson. According to Dan Quayle and the other hate mongers at this conference, only those who believe deserve the right to life and liberty. I guess that means the rest of us can die in chains, just as we did in the Dark Ages.

Religious bigotry is at the heart of fundamentalism, and Christian fundamentalism is in turn the heart of the so-called "creation science" movement. In its various forms, creationist bigotry usually incorporates one or more of 3 basic premises:

  1. If evolution theory is wrong, then the only alternative is Biblical creationism. All dissimilar creation myths are invalid.

  2. The Bible is representative of all religious creation stories, and Christianity is representative of all "major" religions. Whenever someone speaks of "religion", "spirituality", and "mysticism" we should assume that he is talking about Christianity.

  3. Non-Christian beliefs are based on corrupted, immoral motivations, under the influence of Satan.

Every one of these premises is both indefensible and incredibly offensive, yet all of those assumptions are very common among creaionists, for whom it doesn't even seem to matter that their "scientific theory" would be the only theory in the history of science that requires faith in a particular religion.

Suggested Tactics

Educate Them About Other Religions. Some famous atheists have half-jokingly quipped in the past that "the solution to Christianity is education". While that may be a bit harsh, it is certainly fair to say that creationist misconceptions about the universality of their particular creation myth are best dispelled with information. Concrete information about the true beliefs of humanism (as opposed to the Christian fundamentalist strawman stereotype of selfish hedonists) and the specifics of other religions' creation myths (as opposed to the creationist assumption that they either follow Judaism or they're Satan worshippers) is the best way to break through a creationist's intellectual defense shield of xenophobia and religious egocentrism.

Examples follow:

"If creation theory has no independent basis, then why do all the world's religions have similar stories of the Creation and the Flood? Why do scientists insist on assuming that all of the world's religions are wrong? Evolution theory is nothing more than an organized assault upon religion."

This person confuses "religion" for "Christianity", by blindly assuming that every religion in the world is incompatible with evolution theory. In reality, many of the world's religions are quite compatible with evolution theory (some even provide support for it). Creationists who propose this argument are simply demonstrating ignorance of other religions. This is not surprising; throughout most of their history, Christians were not only reluctant to study other religions, but they actually tried to obliterate them by force, through torture, massacres, and destruction of cultural artifacts such as libraries and temples. Today, Christianity has generally improved upon its heinous past, and many Christians' value systems are quite similar to those of humanists. Such Christians no longer murder and torture "heretics", and some of them have even chosen to open their minds not only to science, but also to the richness and diversity of world history, as opposed to a narrow minded focus on European Christian history.

Progressive Christians tend to focus on Jesus' common-sense message of reciprocity, meaning that you should love your neighbour and treat others as you would have them treat you. This is known as the "Golden Rule", and while Christian egocentrics tend to act as though it is their exclusive intellectual property, versions of it are actually found in the ancient writings of virtually all the world's cultures. Of course, in order to live by this rule, they must downplay or refute the parts of the Bible which encourage intolerance and misogynism, sometimes by simply ignoring them and sometimes by arguing that the Golden Rule overrides them. The term "humanist Christian" is often thought of as an oxymoron, but that isn't necessarily the case; humanism and atheism are not synonymous. Humanism is about placing the good of humankind and the good of your fellow human above all else, and a humanist Christian could easily make the argument that the basic principles of humanism are highly compatible with the principles that Jesus tried to outline in the New Testament. However, unlike Jesus or God, humanism makes no value judgement on the basis of religion; it is equally accepting of Buddhists, Taoists, Christians, Hindus, Wiccans, Muslims, and others, including atheists. It is the only system of values which is so broadly inclusive, and therefore, it is the only system of values upon which governments should be based.

However, this means it is also anathema to certain Christians (read: right-wing fundamentalist fanatics), who have chosen instead to close their minds, cling to the past, and fight a seemingly never-ending propaganda war against science and humanism (some, like Pat Robertson, still defend the morality of Old Testament atrocities such as the slaughter of Palestinian women and children).

I remember once watching one of those "political talk shows" and seeing a Christian fundamentalist explaining that school prayer was necessary in order to introduce "spirituality" to children (for some reason, she felt it was necessary for the state to perform this function, rather than the parents). When queried about the obvious religious bigotry inherent in this approach, and its implications for religious freedom of non-Christians, she confidently replied that since all of the world's religions from Judaism to Islam to Christianity are very similar, sharing the same God, it wouldn't be a serious problem. And if they insisted on being difficult, they could always simply "opt out" (and in so doing, stand apart from the rest of the class, which is a great way to make a child feel welcome).

I remember being disgusted at her attitude and amazed at the fact that no one else on the panel seemed to take offense at her arrogance and bigotry. This kind of obtuse navel-gazing ignorance is a classic European cultural mindset which has unfortunately been adopted by many Americans (for example, they know the "yin/yang" symbol, but they have no idea that it is actually derived from the Taoist religion; they think it's just a "Chinese philosophy thing", or that it has something to do with kung fu).

I suggest that Christian egocentrists go to the library and borrow a book on the world's other religions before presuming to speak for them. There are billions of Hindus and Buddhists in the world, and none of them would want their children to feel like outcasts for not participating in school prayer to the Christian God. Hindus are even polytheistic, even though Christian egocentrists tend to believe that monotheism is somehow "more advanced" than polytheism (in reality, both monotheistic and polytheistic religions are traceable back to the dawn of recorded history). There are at least five different types of creation myth:

  1. Creation through Emergence: a pre-existing chaotic universe or netherworld gains form and substance in a gradual process. This type of creation myth is usually suggestive of slow maturation, or growth, as opposed to a single titanic event. The process might even be on-going and eternal (much like evolution). Zuni religious writings describe "unfinished creatures", slowly developing and growing "more manlike". Australian aboriginal creation myths describe primitive human-like creatures haphazardly forming out of plants and animal parts and then being moulded into finished humans by the gods. These types of religions (of which the American Navajo religion is yet another example) tend to emphasize the spirit of communion with the land and with the animals, since we came from them. This is a sharp contrast with Christianity and its past doctrines of human dominion over the animal kingdom.

  2. Creation through Birth: the Earth or the universe is quite literally born, either from a primordial mother or from two divine parents. The Aztec and Babylonian religions are examples of this type of creation myth.

  3. Creation from a Cosmic Egg: the universe hatches from an egg. This egg may be created by the gods, or it may be a god, or it may contain gods, along with the raw material necessary for the universe. The Chinese god Pan Gu was hatched from such an egg. In the Hindu religion, the universe was created through the breaking of a cosmic egg, which had shone as brilliantly as a sun and from which Brahma emerged.

  4. Creation by "Earth divers": the Earth is retrieved from primordial waters. It may be either retrieved intact or in pieces which are to be assembled by god(s). Many ancient central European tribal religions incorporated this type of creation myth.

  5. Creation by Supreme Being: a deity predates the universe. His power is absolute, and he creates the universe from his mind. Supreme deities are usually sky gods, for which the remoteness of the heavens generates awe and a sense of inscrutability among believers. Creationists invariably assume this to be the only type of creation myth.

"Let us break through some of the inhibitions that have existed to talk together across the flimsy lines of separation of faith, to talk together, to study together, to pray together, and ultimately to sing together His Holy name."- Senator Joseph Lieberman, speaking at Fellowship Chapel in Detroit while running for Vice President, Aug. 27, 2000 (like many Judeo-Christian bigots, he assumes all faiths share the same God). Quoted from AA News #808.

If you examine the world's various creation myths, you may notice a very interesting fact: many of them are more easily reconciled with biology and cosmology than you might expect. In fact, the "Creation through Emergence" story is startlingly similar to evolution theory, and "Creation from a Cosmic Egg" is strongly reminiscent of Big Bang theory. Moreover, a very common thread in various mythologies is the pre-existent chaos, in which a universe already exists before the "Creation" but it is formless and dark, and the gods merely take this pre-existing matter and transform it into the modern world. This is a sharp contrast to the creationist assumption that creation myths are all predicated upon a supreme being who creates the universe with a mere thought.

Does evolution theory represent an "assault upon religion?" Not necessarily. It does, however, represent the scientific conclusion that Biblical fundamentalism has no foundation whatsoever in logic and observation. Creationists interpret this as an attack against "religion" because they think they stand for all of the world's religions, despite their ideological differences and their long history of trying to wipe out those other religions.

"The only way to arrive at evolution theory is from a close-minded secular, humanistic mindset."

And why is humanism bad, particularly when we speak of science? Humanism, as it applies to science, is the notion that it is possible to understand the universe through the reasoning faculties of the human mind. It is part of the philosophical foundation of science! How can a legitimate scientific theory not be based on a humanistic mindset? The fact that a theory is "humanistic" is hardly a condemnation, but creationists are so accustomed to speaking of "humanism" in a perjorative sense that they instinctively assume everyone else sees the term in the same negative way.

The scientific method leaves no room for creationist nonsense. Scientists are supposed to confine their analyses strictly to the bounds of observation and reason. Scientists are supposed to assume that every phenomenon in the universe has a natural mechanism. Scientists are supposed to discount supernatural explanations for observed phenomena. That is the scientific method, in which all phenomena in the universe are grouped into those we understand and those we have yet to understand. There is no third option of supernatural explanations, nor should there be. If supernatural explanations were acceptable scientific explanations for all unknowns, then mankind would never have developed any science at all.

Scientists are often accused of being "close-minded" for doing this. The term "close-minded" has a perjorative implication, but it is a relative term. When we say that others are "close-minded", we usually mean that they are close-minded to whatever we're trying to push on them. Scientists are close-minded to the supernatural, but they are open-minded to observations and rational theories. Mystics, on the other hand, are open minded to mysticism, pseudoscience, and the supernatural, but they are close-minded to the scientific method. This contrast of competing philosophies is nothing new, but an increasingly large number of mystics want to upset the balance. They want to force scientists to consider supernatural theories alongside natural mechanisms; in effect, they want to destroy science by removing the scientific method and replacing it with the methods of mysticism.

"Evolutionists are just atheists who want to believe that there's no God so that they won't have to obey His laws, even though they know the truth, deep down. In fact, the decay of family values, the explosion of pornography, and the general decline in societal mores can be directly attributed to humanist teachings such as evolution theory and moral relativism, which basically encourages people to follow their own selfish interests instead of obeying traditional values and morals."

This is by far the most offensive, arrogant, insulting, and hateful creationist argument in existence: religious bigotry at its worst. If you are a religious person and you don't see what's wrong with this statement, then try asking yourself how you would feel if someone accused all Jews or all Hindus of being immoral and selfish. Try asking yourself how you would feel if someone assumed that all Buddhists were secretly Christians but were feverishly trying to deny the truth to themselves. Do you see the problem? This argument could simply be dismissed as fallacious, on the grounds that morality has nothing to do with the scientific validity of evolution theory. However, that would probably do little to silence the critics, whose attacks on evolution theory often start with this bizarre "moral argument".

"We're going to bring back God and the Bible and drive the gods of secular humanism right out of the public schools of America."- Pat Buchanan, at an anti-gay rally in Des Moines, Iowa, February 11, 1996 (it apparently doesn't occur to him that secular humanism is a philosophy rather than a religion, and as such, has no "gods", nor does it occur to him that in order to drive secular humanism out of public schools, they will have to abolish all science classses).

For some reason it is considered perfectly acceptable to hold bigoted views of atheists, particularly in America, where the flames of religious hatred are fanned daily by hate-mongers such as Pat Robertson and the rest of the so-called "right-wing fundamentalist movement". Religious leaders are fond of saying that atheism is every bit as much a religion as Christianity, Judaism, or Hinduism, in an obvious attempt to contradict the secular interpretation of atheism as an absence of religion. But if they truly feel that atheism is a religion, then why don't they treat atheists with the same religious tolerance that most of them preach for the "real" religions? Why is it acceptable to accuse atheists as a group of being amoral, or selfish, or hedonistic, or anti-family, or decadent?

If you listen carefully, you will find that anti-atheist hatred positively drips from the mouth of every preacher. Every minister. Every religious television show. If there is a modern Devil according to the fundamentalists, its name is secularism. Secularism is held responsible for everything from violence to divorce, rape, war, drug use, and any other imaginable social problem. It is the convenient scapegoat upon which every societal problem can be summarily blamed, without evidence or argument.

Atheists are Public Enemy #1 according to this mindset. If secularism is deemed responsible for everything the fundamentalists consider unpleasant or undesirable, then it's only natural to blame the members of this "cult": the atheists. It doesn't matter that there is no statistical variation in the crime rates between atheists and Christians. It doesn't matter that atheists are actually less likely to divorce than Christians. All that matters is that atheists think differently, and the persistent Crusade mentality of the fundamentalist deems all other systems of thought to be targets of enmity, hatred, and if possible, obliteration.

The historical fact is that these religious zealots are throwing stones from glass houses. The history of religion is anything but a noble one, and the union of church and state (which is what the creationists are pushing for, with the agenda to insinuate their religion into the schools) has invariably resulted in widespread oppression and human rights violations. In fact, the union of church and state continues to cause such problems today, as seen most dramatically in the resurgent Islamic fundamentalist governments of the Middle East, where women are being stoned to death for committing adultery or trying to find work. See the Religion and Morality page if you're interested in knowing more about this subject.

"You cannot produce one conclusive piece of evidence to prove the theory of evolution, yet you deny creationism! You are clearly being dogmatic."

This argument is sometimes accompanied by gratuitous publicity stunts, eg. there's at least one person offering a reward for anyone who can produce a piece of scientific evidence which he regards as conclusive proof of evolution. However, the basic premise falls apart on three levels.

  1. It implicitly assumes that if evolution theory cannot be "proven", then creationism wins by default. This is a false dilemma fallacy (artificially narrowing the choices). Even if you refuse to accept the overwhelming evidence for evolution theory, who's to say that the Earth must have been created in six days by one supreme being? Why six days? Why the one specific god described in the Jewish Bible? Why couldn't it have been created through a collaborative effort by many gods in a pantheistic religion? Why couldn't it have been created by the universal energy described by Taoist-style religions? Why couldn't it have been created by the pink unicorn? Why couldn't Earth itself be a god, as described in some of the "Earth mother" religions? Christians have a nasty tendency to forget that theirs is not the only religion in the world.

  2. It demands "proof" of a scientific theory. However, the act of demanding "proof" merely betrays ignorance of scientific methods. Unlike mathematical theories, scientific theories are not "proven". Competing theories are judged on their consistency with observation, and the best theory wins (science itself is an evolutionary process in that respect). If science demanded absolute "proof" of theories, then we wouldn't have any theories at all. Even the theory of gravity can't be "proven"; it can only be shown to be consistent with observation.

  3. The person who makes this argument sets himself up as the sole arbiter of any evidence that comes his way. He doesn't want to let "qualified biologists" judge (no surprise, since they won't produce the conclusions he's looking for), nor does he explain exactly what would qualify as conclusive evidence. By using himself as the arbiter and refusing to describe the proof he's looking for, he deliberately sets an impossible standard.

"I have a standing offer of $250,000 to anyone who can give any empirical evidence (scientific proof) for evolution. My $250,000 offer demonstrates that the hypothesis of evolution is nothing more than a religious belief."- Kent Hovind (notice how he doesn't realize there's no such thing as "scientific proof")

After being pressed for a full explanation of how to collect the $250,000 reward, he clarified his position: "In order to collect the money you must 'Prove beyond reasonable doubt that the process of evolution (The universe came into being by itself by purely natural processes (known as evolution) so that no appeal to the supernatural is needed.) is the only possible way the observed phenomena (the universe, planets, life and mankind) could have come into existence.' If you want everyone to pay for this silly theory of evolution to be taught then the burden of proof is on you."- Kent Hovind. Notice how he thinks evolution theory deals with the origins of the universe rather than the gradual change of biological structures (gross strawman fallacy), and also notice how he thinks a valid scientific theory must be the "only possible" explanation for a phenomenon (gross misrepresentation of scientific method). In reality, a valid theory is the one which most closely fits the facts, and Occam's Razor is used as a tie-breaker if necessary. Since an infinite number of theories can be generated for any given phenomenon (hence the need for Occam's Razor), it is impossible to fulfill his requirements for any scientific theory, even the theory of gravity.

This kind of argument is a classic example of the religious egocentrism that we have sadly come to expect from creationists. It assumes that creationism logically follows if evolution theory cannot be "proven" to their satisfaction. It contains the utterly absurd assumption that if there were no such thing as evolution theory, then a researcher would independently arrive at Biblical creationism, even if he were not schooled in Judeo-Christian thought! In the end, it is a mere rhetorical ploy, barely worthy of rebuttal.

As an aside, the tactic of demanding proof and then setting oneself up as the arbiter of that proof is also used by Holocaust deniers. If you are faced with this ploy (on the part of either creationists or holocaust deniers), a good tactic is to simply ask "what would you accept as evidence?" If a subject change is attempted, simply force the subject back to that central question: "what would you accept as evidence?"

You may be surprised to discover that when pushed, your opponent will have no answer. He will either become evasive or suggest a nonsensical form of evidence such as "direct observation of the moment of abiogenesis, four billion years ago", as if a time machine could be built for this purpose. Scientific theories are based on analysis of whatever evidence we can obtain, not an obstinate insistence upon particular forms of evidence which we can't obtain.

The natural creationist objection is to claim that indirect observations "don't count", but in reality, despite their ignorant expectations, countless scientific observations are indirect in nature. For example, we know that other stars in the universe have planets indirectly (through observation of gravitational perturbations) even though we can't travel there and see these planets for ourselves. We know that the Sun is powered by nuclear fusion indirectly (through observation of its mass, chemical composition, and output) even though we can't observe this process directly. We know about electrons indirectly (through their interaction with other forms of matter and energy) even though they're too small to see, even with a microscope. And finally, we know that life began on Earth billions of years ago (through observation of fossil patterns as well as geographical distribution of modern species) even though we can't travel back through time and watch it happen.



TOPICS: Miscellaneous; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: crevolist; sasu
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To: Bear Bottoms
What about the serious problems with the Creationist Theory. Blindly biased ye are a bit maybe?

Some creationist theories do not fit well with our observations, others fit moderately well with many observations but are unfalsifiable, and therefore not properly science according to some definitions of science. The mainstream approach to this in public schools is to pretend that evolution has no serious problems and that creationism is not science.

Rippin

241 posted on 03/11/2002 11:38:58 AM PST by Rippin
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To: VadeRetro
"Your tirade on Clinton was in response to:"

Forgive me, please forgive me for insulting your hero.

Now to the real discussion. I refuted your post, very clearly very explicitly. The point I made was quite simple and quite incontrovertible: evolutionists have been lying for a long time, they have been making things up. Worse, even when caught, they keep telling the same lies. The best example of this is Haeckel's embryo pictures which for decades after they had been proven to be totally bogus, evolutionists kept them in textbooks to pervert the minds of innocent children.

Is that the way of science? To lie as long as you can? To refuse to make ammends for lies previously told? To continue to propagate a lie long after it has been proven to be a lie?

242 posted on 03/11/2002 3:52:54 PM PST by gore3000
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To: gore3000
I refuted your post, very clearly very explicitly.

As totally expected, you simply posted a response on a subject of your chosing, utterly ignoring the content of my post.

The misleading natue of Haeckel's drawings was not discovered for a long time. Creationists were not involved in the process anywhere, any more than they were in uncovering the Piltdown Man hoax. Creationists only spin the work of others to their own ends, contributing no content but smoke and mirrors.

"Ontogeny Recapitulates Phylogeny" is not literally, step-by-step true; you were never a fish, but you did once have gill slits. Nevertheless, the discipline of "Evolutionary Developmental Biology" is testimony to the scientific usefulness of the general principle.

"Evo-Devo"

243 posted on 03/11/2002 4:05:25 PM PST by VadeRetro
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To: VadeRetro
"Anyway, if any evidence at all can turn up and that's OK, as is certainly true with creationism/ID--nothing falsifies--then your alleged theory isn't a theory at all, or even a decent hypothesis. It has no implications. It tells you nothing about the real, observable, testable world."

Aaaah, Creationism, the evolutionist's strawman. I know a lot of people who believe man and all living things were created by God. None of them call themselves Creationists. They call themselves Christians.

The part of Christianity which is relevant to the discussion of evolution is the Bible's statements that God created all life and that God created man. This is what Christians believe. It is not a scientific theory, it is a religion. However, the fact that it is not a scientific theory does not mean that it is not true.

It is not Christians that started this fight, it was evolutionists who really were not interested in science, but in attacking religion. You can barely read any of these evolution threads without seeing evolutionists showing their rabid hatred of religion. Evolutionists are trying to use the good name of science to undermine religious belief and promote atheism. Christians are defending their faith against this attack.

The way the Christians defend it is simply by showing that evolution is not science: that evolution is not based on facts: that evolution is internally inconsistent: that evolution is contradicted by many things which real scientists have proven.

So the opposition to evolutionism is not creationism, it is not an ideology, it is not a scientific theory, it is not a theory at all. It is a criticism of evolution using the tools of science, reasoning and common sense. This is perfectly valid. In fact, criticism, analysis, reasoning, and common sense, are the tools of science itself and for you to call this criticism invalid is total nonsense. Science is criticism, and if your theory disdains criticism, if your theory abhors criticism, if your theory does not wish to stand up and defend itself from criticism, then it is an admission that evolution is not science.

244 posted on 03/11/2002 4:16:32 PM PST by gore3000
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To: Dog Gone
The purpose of evolution is not to attack Christian beliefs,

It certainly is, from the start Darwin, a hidden atheist, surrounded himself with atheists. It's prime teaching - survival of the fittest (aka might makes right) was adopted by the two most atheistic and barbaric ideologies of the 20th century - Nazism and Communism. The famous "monkey trial" (which BTW the evolutionists lost) was an attack on religion led by the most famous atheist lawyer in the country. The most prominent exponent of evolution nowadays is the virulent (and rather stupid, I might say) atheist Richard Dawkings.

However, perhaps the greatest proof that atheism is a direct attack on Christianity can be seen in the arguments of evolutionists themselves in their posts and in the articles that support evolution. Their constant refrain is that even though they have not found the answer for the materialistic creation of life and the bounties of nature, the answer will be found because it is impossible that the world, life and mankind could have been created by that deity which Christians call God.

245 posted on 03/11/2002 4:28:38 PM PST by gore3000
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To: gore3000
The Theory of Gravity has been adopted by Nazis and Communists too, so we must reject it. Okie dokie.
246 posted on 03/11/2002 4:30:10 PM PST by Dog Gone
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To: Vercingetorix
Your article says:

The core beliefs of Christian Identity are so far astray from those of mainstream Christianity

Seems you are attacking Christianity by using as an example of the terrors of Christianity a group which Christians abhor. As I said, your post was totally slanderous of Christians, and now, in the words of your own "proof" you have shown me to be correct.

247 posted on 03/11/2002 4:34:59 PM PST by gore3000
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To: js1138
There is a point in any investigation when reasonable people will say that facts are established beyond a reasonable doubt. that point has long been passed with regard to evolution.

Well, let's investigate evolution then in terms of reasonable doubt. You state that evolution has proof beyond a reasonable doubt of its theory. Let's see it - or do you wish to keep us in the dark?

248 posted on 03/11/2002 4:40:06 PM PST by gore3000
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To: Psalm 73
"Supposition, not fact."

Worse than supposition, not true at all.

Homo erectus lived from approximately 2 million to around 400,000 years ago.
from: http://www.wsu.edu:8001/vwsu/gened/learn-modules/top_longfor/timeline/erectus/erectus-a.html

The erectus discoveries mostly date 1.2-0.4 million years ago and have been found widespread in Africa, Asia, and Europe.
http://anthro.palomar.edu/homo/homo_2%20.htm

Homo erectus
Pronounced As: homo rekts , extinct hominid living between 1.6 million and 250,000 years ago.
from: http://www.encyclopedia.com/articles/06008.html

249 posted on 03/11/2002 4:52:25 PM PST by gore3000
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To: gore3000
"As I said, your post was totally slanderous of Christians, and now, in the words of your own "proof" you have shown me to be correct." -- gore3000

Don't be silly. No one in the history of your gore3000 existence has ever shown you to be correct.

The Christian Identity Movement, while it harbors the most delusional and irrational blelievers, nonetheless is a Christian sect. Formerly mainstream Christians have joined this group, including some prominent figures. It is indeed a form of Christianity. It's here, it's virulent, it's dangerous. To pretend it doesn't exist is foolish.

You can call it by some other name if you like but the folks that follow this depravity call it Christianity. It is, by the way, only one example. There are numerous other Christian sects committed to equally bizarre beliefs though perhaps less prone to violence.

It is impossible to lump all Christians under one banner. They are not all the same. "Virulent Christian sects" clearly does not refer to Christianity in general unless you are of the opinion that every Christian belongs to a virulent sect. If that is your opinion then your complaint makes sense. If that is not your opinion then the most probable other reasonable explanation for your disagreement might be your bona fide charter membership in the afore mentioned sect.

250 posted on 03/11/2002 5:31:55 PM PST by Vercingetorix
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To: gore3000
Aaaah, Creationism, the evolutionist's strawman. I know a lot of people who believe man and all living things were created by God. None of them call themselves Creationists. They call themselves Christians.

The part of Christianity which is relevant to the discussion of evolution is the Bible's statements that God created all life and that God created man. This is what Christians believe. It is not a scientific theory, it is a religion. However, the fact that it is not a scientific theory does not mean that it is not true.

Thank you for admitting that "competing theories" (competing with evolution) have no place in science class. We seem to agree that none of these "theories" qualifies as even a theory, much less as a scientific theory.

So the opposition to evolutionism is not creationism, it is not an ideology, it is not a scientific theory, it is not a theory at all. It is a criticism of evolution using the tools of science, reasoning and common sense.

The opposition to evolution aspires to be taught as a "competing theory." It isn't one. You don't have a horse in the race. You're not addressing the question of what motivates the opposition. Modern science, not just evolution but geology, astronomy, nuclear chemistry--a lot of things most of the world believes to be outside the term "evolution"--seems to contradict your religion's creation myth.

You confuse cause and effect in your post. Your religion leads you to attack science because science has dared to "attack" your religion by finding contrary data. But science is not and cannot be about proving your preacher right.

251 posted on 03/11/2002 5:34:50 PM PST by VadeRetro
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To: gore3000
Click me!
252 posted on 03/11/2002 5:41:54 PM PST by VadeRetro
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To: gore3000
There are species around to be the ancestor of modern Homo sapiens.

I embarrassed you with data on another thread until you ran away and stopped answering. Like many another, however, you and your arguments are reborn every thread on square one, hoping to find fresh meat.

253 posted on 03/11/2002 5:46:05 PM PST by VadeRetro
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To: Dimensio
"Argument from incredulity then?"

I think I tossed that in there for a couple of reasons.
One is that it IS a legitimate sticking point, and also because of the incredulity that is shown toward people who don't swallow the entirety of the evolution theory.
(ie, "I can't believe they actually think like this"!)
But not entirely necessary for my "degrees of faith" argument.

254 posted on 03/12/2002 8:05:00 AM PST by Psalm 73
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To: Dimensio
"...if Creationism is to be taught in schools, I don't see any reason why it can't be Last Thursdayism Creationism."

Honestly, why does it bother you so that so many people believe in Creationist theory?
You don't get nasty and sarcastic like this when adding to other discussion threads?
Heck, for all you know, I could be the Attorney you sought advice from or the surgeon that operated on you.

255 posted on 03/12/2002 8:10:00 AM PST by Psalm 73
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To: Psalm 73
Honestly, why does it bother you so that so many people believe in Creationist theory?

Actually my problem is with people trying to argue that creationism should be taught in science classes, or those who insist on the false duality of either evolution or Biblical creationism. The latter is the reason that I brought up Last Thursdayism -- it's a creationist worldview that is not Biblically based.
256 posted on 03/12/2002 9:13:59 AM PST by Dimensio
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To: VadeRetro
The misleading natue of Haeckel's drawings was not discovered for a long time.

But it has been known about for a long time. According to the Encyclopedia of Evolution (written by evolutionists), it was discredited in the year 1900. Why is it still being utilized today? I saw the entire series of pictures in a 1999 textbook, and it nowhere stated that this was a fraud. It was taught as a factual example.

There are pouch-like structures which form in the fish embryo and which look superficially similar to the pharyngeal pouches or grooves in the human embryo (these were formerly incorrectly called branchial (i.e., gill) grooves). However, whereas in fish this region develops gills, in humans it forms very important, and quite different, structures in the head and neck region, structures which have nothing to do with gills in either form or function.

These structures include several which contain cartilage (such as the voice-box, or larynx). So it is not at all surprising, in a fallen world, that there should occasionally be an aberration of normal embryonic development, such that a clump of laryngeal-type cartilage (for example) is incorrectly "seeded" in the side of the neck during development in the womb, and begins growing.

Author: Dr. Carl Wieland, "A Fishy Story," Creation: Ex Nihilo, Vol. 16, No. 4 (September-November 1994), pp. 46-47
257 posted on 03/12/2002 9:53:33 AM PST by Elijah27
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To: Dimensio
"Actually my problem is with people trying to argue that creationism should be taught in science classes..."

OK, so you would have no problem with public school science classes also delving into the problems with macro-evolution, and the differences between the various evoltionary schools of thought?
They seem to present it as a tidy package, all wrapped up and complete.
They never cover the threads that do not connect, but just assume that they will, in time.
It is not an exact science, even more in-exact (is that a word?) than human psychology.

258 posted on 03/12/2002 10:13:37 AM PST by Psalm 73
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To: Elijah27
Again, you were never a fish. However, you were a unicellular not much distinguishable from a protozoan, then a colonial multicellular not much distinguishable from a slime mold, then a primitive chordate, then a vertebrate. Obviously, those pharyngeal slits don't develop into gills in the adult human, but no one was arguing that they do.

Did you follow the link in the post you're responding to? There's a whole discipline developing which amounts to tracing the history of the individual genes and their role as you move around the tree of life.

According to the Encyclopedia of Evolution (written by evolutionists), it was discredited in the year 1900. Why is it still being utilized today? I saw the entire series of pictures in a 1999 textbook, and it nowhere stated that this was a fraud. It was taught as a factual example.

I'm curious. So very many creationists seem to have seen this textbook. Do you recall the title and/or author?

259 posted on 03/12/2002 10:46:17 AM PST by VadeRetro
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To: Psalm 73
"Actually my problem is with people trying to argue that creationism should be taught in science classes..."

OK, so you would have no problem with public school science classes also delving into the problems with macro-evolution, and the differences between the various evoltionary schools of thought?


Actually for a high school setting I think that the basics should be taught first (natural selection theory, mutation theory). If there's time, then go into the various different theories of how evolution occured over a span of billions of years. The more in-depth study of the various theories is probably best suited for college-level education though.

If there are holes or problems, they should be presented as they are. However, what should not be presented are the well-debunked strawmen like the myth about the earth's magnetic field decaying over time or the slowdown of the earth's rotation or the lie that if the planet were just a little closer to or further from the sun then all life would die.
260 posted on 03/12/2002 10:56:38 AM PST by Dimensio
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