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Common Creationist Arguments
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Creationism/Arguments/index.shtml ^

Posted on 03/08/2002 7:55:48 AM PST by JediGirl

Common Creationist Arguments

Religious Bigotry

"I pledge allegiance to the Christian flag, and to the Saviour, for whose Kingdom it stands, one Saviour, crucified, risen, and coming again, with life and liberty for all who believe."- Dan Quayle, participating in a modified Pledge of Allegiance at the "Reclaiming America" conference in Fort Lauderdale, Florida, 1994. Quoted from Eternal Hostility: The Struggle Between Theocracy and Democracy, by Frederick Clarkson. According to Dan Quayle and the other hate mongers at this conference, only those who believe deserve the right to life and liberty. I guess that means the rest of us can die in chains, just as we did in the Dark Ages.

Religious bigotry is at the heart of fundamentalism, and Christian fundamentalism is in turn the heart of the so-called "creation science" movement. In its various forms, creationist bigotry usually incorporates one or more of 3 basic premises:

  1. If evolution theory is wrong, then the only alternative is Biblical creationism. All dissimilar creation myths are invalid.

  2. The Bible is representative of all religious creation stories, and Christianity is representative of all "major" religions. Whenever someone speaks of "religion", "spirituality", and "mysticism" we should assume that he is talking about Christianity.

  3. Non-Christian beliefs are based on corrupted, immoral motivations, under the influence of Satan.

Every one of these premises is both indefensible and incredibly offensive, yet all of those assumptions are very common among creaionists, for whom it doesn't even seem to matter that their "scientific theory" would be the only theory in the history of science that requires faith in a particular religion.

Suggested Tactics

Educate Them About Other Religions. Some famous atheists have half-jokingly quipped in the past that "the solution to Christianity is education". While that may be a bit harsh, it is certainly fair to say that creationist misconceptions about the universality of their particular creation myth are best dispelled with information. Concrete information about the true beliefs of humanism (as opposed to the Christian fundamentalist strawman stereotype of selfish hedonists) and the specifics of other religions' creation myths (as opposed to the creationist assumption that they either follow Judaism or they're Satan worshippers) is the best way to break through a creationist's intellectual defense shield of xenophobia and religious egocentrism.

Examples follow:

"If creation theory has no independent basis, then why do all the world's religions have similar stories of the Creation and the Flood? Why do scientists insist on assuming that all of the world's religions are wrong? Evolution theory is nothing more than an organized assault upon religion."

This person confuses "religion" for "Christianity", by blindly assuming that every religion in the world is incompatible with evolution theory. In reality, many of the world's religions are quite compatible with evolution theory (some even provide support for it). Creationists who propose this argument are simply demonstrating ignorance of other religions. This is not surprising; throughout most of their history, Christians were not only reluctant to study other religions, but they actually tried to obliterate them by force, through torture, massacres, and destruction of cultural artifacts such as libraries and temples. Today, Christianity has generally improved upon its heinous past, and many Christians' value systems are quite similar to those of humanists. Such Christians no longer murder and torture "heretics", and some of them have even chosen to open their minds not only to science, but also to the richness and diversity of world history, as opposed to a narrow minded focus on European Christian history.

Progressive Christians tend to focus on Jesus' common-sense message of reciprocity, meaning that you should love your neighbour and treat others as you would have them treat you. This is known as the "Golden Rule", and while Christian egocentrics tend to act as though it is their exclusive intellectual property, versions of it are actually found in the ancient writings of virtually all the world's cultures. Of course, in order to live by this rule, they must downplay or refute the parts of the Bible which encourage intolerance and misogynism, sometimes by simply ignoring them and sometimes by arguing that the Golden Rule overrides them. The term "humanist Christian" is often thought of as an oxymoron, but that isn't necessarily the case; humanism and atheism are not synonymous. Humanism is about placing the good of humankind and the good of your fellow human above all else, and a humanist Christian could easily make the argument that the basic principles of humanism are highly compatible with the principles that Jesus tried to outline in the New Testament. However, unlike Jesus or God, humanism makes no value judgement on the basis of religion; it is equally accepting of Buddhists, Taoists, Christians, Hindus, Wiccans, Muslims, and others, including atheists. It is the only system of values which is so broadly inclusive, and therefore, it is the only system of values upon which governments should be based.

However, this means it is also anathema to certain Christians (read: right-wing fundamentalist fanatics), who have chosen instead to close their minds, cling to the past, and fight a seemingly never-ending propaganda war against science and humanism (some, like Pat Robertson, still defend the morality of Old Testament atrocities such as the slaughter of Palestinian women and children).

I remember once watching one of those "political talk shows" and seeing a Christian fundamentalist explaining that school prayer was necessary in order to introduce "spirituality" to children (for some reason, she felt it was necessary for the state to perform this function, rather than the parents). When queried about the obvious religious bigotry inherent in this approach, and its implications for religious freedom of non-Christians, she confidently replied that since all of the world's religions from Judaism to Islam to Christianity are very similar, sharing the same God, it wouldn't be a serious problem. And if they insisted on being difficult, they could always simply "opt out" (and in so doing, stand apart from the rest of the class, which is a great way to make a child feel welcome).

I remember being disgusted at her attitude and amazed at the fact that no one else on the panel seemed to take offense at her arrogance and bigotry. This kind of obtuse navel-gazing ignorance is a classic European cultural mindset which has unfortunately been adopted by many Americans (for example, they know the "yin/yang" symbol, but they have no idea that it is actually derived from the Taoist religion; they think it's just a "Chinese philosophy thing", or that it has something to do with kung fu).

I suggest that Christian egocentrists go to the library and borrow a book on the world's other religions before presuming to speak for them. There are billions of Hindus and Buddhists in the world, and none of them would want their children to feel like outcasts for not participating in school prayer to the Christian God. Hindus are even polytheistic, even though Christian egocentrists tend to believe that monotheism is somehow "more advanced" than polytheism (in reality, both monotheistic and polytheistic religions are traceable back to the dawn of recorded history). There are at least five different types of creation myth:

  1. Creation through Emergence: a pre-existing chaotic universe or netherworld gains form and substance in a gradual process. This type of creation myth is usually suggestive of slow maturation, or growth, as opposed to a single titanic event. The process might even be on-going and eternal (much like evolution). Zuni religious writings describe "unfinished creatures", slowly developing and growing "more manlike". Australian aboriginal creation myths describe primitive human-like creatures haphazardly forming out of plants and animal parts and then being moulded into finished humans by the gods. These types of religions (of which the American Navajo religion is yet another example) tend to emphasize the spirit of communion with the land and with the animals, since we came from them. This is a sharp contrast with Christianity and its past doctrines of human dominion over the animal kingdom.

  2. Creation through Birth: the Earth or the universe is quite literally born, either from a primordial mother or from two divine parents. The Aztec and Babylonian religions are examples of this type of creation myth.

  3. Creation from a Cosmic Egg: the universe hatches from an egg. This egg may be created by the gods, or it may be a god, or it may contain gods, along with the raw material necessary for the universe. The Chinese god Pan Gu was hatched from such an egg. In the Hindu religion, the universe was created through the breaking of a cosmic egg, which had shone as brilliantly as a sun and from which Brahma emerged.

  4. Creation by "Earth divers": the Earth is retrieved from primordial waters. It may be either retrieved intact or in pieces which are to be assembled by god(s). Many ancient central European tribal religions incorporated this type of creation myth.

  5. Creation by Supreme Being: a deity predates the universe. His power is absolute, and he creates the universe from his mind. Supreme deities are usually sky gods, for which the remoteness of the heavens generates awe and a sense of inscrutability among believers. Creationists invariably assume this to be the only type of creation myth.

"Let us break through some of the inhibitions that have existed to talk together across the flimsy lines of separation of faith, to talk together, to study together, to pray together, and ultimately to sing together His Holy name."- Senator Joseph Lieberman, speaking at Fellowship Chapel in Detroit while running for Vice President, Aug. 27, 2000 (like many Judeo-Christian bigots, he assumes all faiths share the same God). Quoted from AA News #808.

If you examine the world's various creation myths, you may notice a very interesting fact: many of them are more easily reconciled with biology and cosmology than you might expect. In fact, the "Creation through Emergence" story is startlingly similar to evolution theory, and "Creation from a Cosmic Egg" is strongly reminiscent of Big Bang theory. Moreover, a very common thread in various mythologies is the pre-existent chaos, in which a universe already exists before the "Creation" but it is formless and dark, and the gods merely take this pre-existing matter and transform it into the modern world. This is a sharp contrast to the creationist assumption that creation myths are all predicated upon a supreme being who creates the universe with a mere thought.

Does evolution theory represent an "assault upon religion?" Not necessarily. It does, however, represent the scientific conclusion that Biblical fundamentalism has no foundation whatsoever in logic and observation. Creationists interpret this as an attack against "religion" because they think they stand for all of the world's religions, despite their ideological differences and their long history of trying to wipe out those other religions.

"The only way to arrive at evolution theory is from a close-minded secular, humanistic mindset."

And why is humanism bad, particularly when we speak of science? Humanism, as it applies to science, is the notion that it is possible to understand the universe through the reasoning faculties of the human mind. It is part of the philosophical foundation of science! How can a legitimate scientific theory not be based on a humanistic mindset? The fact that a theory is "humanistic" is hardly a condemnation, but creationists are so accustomed to speaking of "humanism" in a perjorative sense that they instinctively assume everyone else sees the term in the same negative way.

The scientific method leaves no room for creationist nonsense. Scientists are supposed to confine their analyses strictly to the bounds of observation and reason. Scientists are supposed to assume that every phenomenon in the universe has a natural mechanism. Scientists are supposed to discount supernatural explanations for observed phenomena. That is the scientific method, in which all phenomena in the universe are grouped into those we understand and those we have yet to understand. There is no third option of supernatural explanations, nor should there be. If supernatural explanations were acceptable scientific explanations for all unknowns, then mankind would never have developed any science at all.

Scientists are often accused of being "close-minded" for doing this. The term "close-minded" has a perjorative implication, but it is a relative term. When we say that others are "close-minded", we usually mean that they are close-minded to whatever we're trying to push on them. Scientists are close-minded to the supernatural, but they are open-minded to observations and rational theories. Mystics, on the other hand, are open minded to mysticism, pseudoscience, and the supernatural, but they are close-minded to the scientific method. This contrast of competing philosophies is nothing new, but an increasingly large number of mystics want to upset the balance. They want to force scientists to consider supernatural theories alongside natural mechanisms; in effect, they want to destroy science by removing the scientific method and replacing it with the methods of mysticism.

"Evolutionists are just atheists who want to believe that there's no God so that they won't have to obey His laws, even though they know the truth, deep down. In fact, the decay of family values, the explosion of pornography, and the general decline in societal mores can be directly attributed to humanist teachings such as evolution theory and moral relativism, which basically encourages people to follow their own selfish interests instead of obeying traditional values and morals."

This is by far the most offensive, arrogant, insulting, and hateful creationist argument in existence: religious bigotry at its worst. If you are a religious person and you don't see what's wrong with this statement, then try asking yourself how you would feel if someone accused all Jews or all Hindus of being immoral and selfish. Try asking yourself how you would feel if someone assumed that all Buddhists were secretly Christians but were feverishly trying to deny the truth to themselves. Do you see the problem? This argument could simply be dismissed as fallacious, on the grounds that morality has nothing to do with the scientific validity of evolution theory. However, that would probably do little to silence the critics, whose attacks on evolution theory often start with this bizarre "moral argument".

"We're going to bring back God and the Bible and drive the gods of secular humanism right out of the public schools of America."- Pat Buchanan, at an anti-gay rally in Des Moines, Iowa, February 11, 1996 (it apparently doesn't occur to him that secular humanism is a philosophy rather than a religion, and as such, has no "gods", nor does it occur to him that in order to drive secular humanism out of public schools, they will have to abolish all science classses).

For some reason it is considered perfectly acceptable to hold bigoted views of atheists, particularly in America, where the flames of religious hatred are fanned daily by hate-mongers such as Pat Robertson and the rest of the so-called "right-wing fundamentalist movement". Religious leaders are fond of saying that atheism is every bit as much a religion as Christianity, Judaism, or Hinduism, in an obvious attempt to contradict the secular interpretation of atheism as an absence of religion. But if they truly feel that atheism is a religion, then why don't they treat atheists with the same religious tolerance that most of them preach for the "real" religions? Why is it acceptable to accuse atheists as a group of being amoral, or selfish, or hedonistic, or anti-family, or decadent?

If you listen carefully, you will find that anti-atheist hatred positively drips from the mouth of every preacher. Every minister. Every religious television show. If there is a modern Devil according to the fundamentalists, its name is secularism. Secularism is held responsible for everything from violence to divorce, rape, war, drug use, and any other imaginable social problem. It is the convenient scapegoat upon which every societal problem can be summarily blamed, without evidence or argument.

Atheists are Public Enemy #1 according to this mindset. If secularism is deemed responsible for everything the fundamentalists consider unpleasant or undesirable, then it's only natural to blame the members of this "cult": the atheists. It doesn't matter that there is no statistical variation in the crime rates between atheists and Christians. It doesn't matter that atheists are actually less likely to divorce than Christians. All that matters is that atheists think differently, and the persistent Crusade mentality of the fundamentalist deems all other systems of thought to be targets of enmity, hatred, and if possible, obliteration.

The historical fact is that these religious zealots are throwing stones from glass houses. The history of religion is anything but a noble one, and the union of church and state (which is what the creationists are pushing for, with the agenda to insinuate their religion into the schools) has invariably resulted in widespread oppression and human rights violations. In fact, the union of church and state continues to cause such problems today, as seen most dramatically in the resurgent Islamic fundamentalist governments of the Middle East, where women are being stoned to death for committing adultery or trying to find work. See the Religion and Morality page if you're interested in knowing more about this subject.

"You cannot produce one conclusive piece of evidence to prove the theory of evolution, yet you deny creationism! You are clearly being dogmatic."

This argument is sometimes accompanied by gratuitous publicity stunts, eg. there's at least one person offering a reward for anyone who can produce a piece of scientific evidence which he regards as conclusive proof of evolution. However, the basic premise falls apart on three levels.

  1. It implicitly assumes that if evolution theory cannot be "proven", then creationism wins by default. This is a false dilemma fallacy (artificially narrowing the choices). Even if you refuse to accept the overwhelming evidence for evolution theory, who's to say that the Earth must have been created in six days by one supreme being? Why six days? Why the one specific god described in the Jewish Bible? Why couldn't it have been created through a collaborative effort by many gods in a pantheistic religion? Why couldn't it have been created by the universal energy described by Taoist-style religions? Why couldn't it have been created by the pink unicorn? Why couldn't Earth itself be a god, as described in some of the "Earth mother" religions? Christians have a nasty tendency to forget that theirs is not the only religion in the world.

  2. It demands "proof" of a scientific theory. However, the act of demanding "proof" merely betrays ignorance of scientific methods. Unlike mathematical theories, scientific theories are not "proven". Competing theories are judged on their consistency with observation, and the best theory wins (science itself is an evolutionary process in that respect). If science demanded absolute "proof" of theories, then we wouldn't have any theories at all. Even the theory of gravity can't be "proven"; it can only be shown to be consistent with observation.

  3. The person who makes this argument sets himself up as the sole arbiter of any evidence that comes his way. He doesn't want to let "qualified biologists" judge (no surprise, since they won't produce the conclusions he's looking for), nor does he explain exactly what would qualify as conclusive evidence. By using himself as the arbiter and refusing to describe the proof he's looking for, he deliberately sets an impossible standard.

"I have a standing offer of $250,000 to anyone who can give any empirical evidence (scientific proof) for evolution. My $250,000 offer demonstrates that the hypothesis of evolution is nothing more than a religious belief."- Kent Hovind (notice how he doesn't realize there's no such thing as "scientific proof")

After being pressed for a full explanation of how to collect the $250,000 reward, he clarified his position: "In order to collect the money you must 'Prove beyond reasonable doubt that the process of evolution (The universe came into being by itself by purely natural processes (known as evolution) so that no appeal to the supernatural is needed.) is the only possible way the observed phenomena (the universe, planets, life and mankind) could have come into existence.' If you want everyone to pay for this silly theory of evolution to be taught then the burden of proof is on you."- Kent Hovind. Notice how he thinks evolution theory deals with the origins of the universe rather than the gradual change of biological structures (gross strawman fallacy), and also notice how he thinks a valid scientific theory must be the "only possible" explanation for a phenomenon (gross misrepresentation of scientific method). In reality, a valid theory is the one which most closely fits the facts, and Occam's Razor is used as a tie-breaker if necessary. Since an infinite number of theories can be generated for any given phenomenon (hence the need for Occam's Razor), it is impossible to fulfill his requirements for any scientific theory, even the theory of gravity.

This kind of argument is a classic example of the religious egocentrism that we have sadly come to expect from creationists. It assumes that creationism logically follows if evolution theory cannot be "proven" to their satisfaction. It contains the utterly absurd assumption that if there were no such thing as evolution theory, then a researcher would independently arrive at Biblical creationism, even if he were not schooled in Judeo-Christian thought! In the end, it is a mere rhetorical ploy, barely worthy of rebuttal.

As an aside, the tactic of demanding proof and then setting oneself up as the arbiter of that proof is also used by Holocaust deniers. If you are faced with this ploy (on the part of either creationists or holocaust deniers), a good tactic is to simply ask "what would you accept as evidence?" If a subject change is attempted, simply force the subject back to that central question: "what would you accept as evidence?"

You may be surprised to discover that when pushed, your opponent will have no answer. He will either become evasive or suggest a nonsensical form of evidence such as "direct observation of the moment of abiogenesis, four billion years ago", as if a time machine could be built for this purpose. Scientific theories are based on analysis of whatever evidence we can obtain, not an obstinate insistence upon particular forms of evidence which we can't obtain.

The natural creationist objection is to claim that indirect observations "don't count", but in reality, despite their ignorant expectations, countless scientific observations are indirect in nature. For example, we know that other stars in the universe have planets indirectly (through observation of gravitational perturbations) even though we can't travel there and see these planets for ourselves. We know that the Sun is powered by nuclear fusion indirectly (through observation of its mass, chemical composition, and output) even though we can't observe this process directly. We know about electrons indirectly (through their interaction with other forms of matter and energy) even though they're too small to see, even with a microscope. And finally, we know that life began on Earth billions of years ago (through observation of fossil patterns as well as geographical distribution of modern species) even though we can't travel back through time and watch it happen.



TOPICS: Miscellaneous; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: crevolist; sasu
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To: Psalm 73
Every criminal case in this country is tried on the basis of "beyond reasonable doubt". Jury members are not witnesses to the crimes they try, but they nevertheless send people to prison, even death based on evidence -- much of it scientific in origin.

There is a point in any investigation when reasonable people will say that facts are established beyond a reasonable doubt. that point has long been passed with regard to evolution.

221 posted on 03/11/2002 7:10:02 AM PST by js1138
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To: Psalm 73
Sure there is. We have shadings from Homo Erectus to Archaic Homo Sapiens to Homo Sapiens. IOW, we've got a pretty complete picture from 1.6 million years ago till now. The trouble falls in determining the placement of the myriad hominid species prior to 1.6 million years ago. There were evidently numerous competing lines of hominids until the rise of Homo Erectus, whereupon the others shuffled off this mortal coil. The two competing species of recent hominids, Homo Neanderthalensis and Homo Sapiens, both descended from Homo Erectus.
222 posted on 03/11/2002 7:23:30 AM PST by Junior
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To: Junior
"Homo Neanderthalensis and Homo Sapiens, both descended from Homo Erectus."

Supposition, not fact.

223 posted on 03/11/2002 7:26:45 AM PST by Psalm 73
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To: Psalm 73
Gee, Homo Erectus comes before either of the latter two in the fossil record. Gee, we can see the changes in the Homo Erectus skeleton over the millennia as it gradually evolved into Homo Neanderthalensis on one side and archaic Homo Sapien and then Homo Sapien on the other. There is no abrupt change between the species in the fossil record, believe it or not. Supposition, it may be, but it is supposition with a strong basis in physical evidence.
224 posted on 03/11/2002 7:30:03 AM PST by Junior
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To: js1138
"There is a point in any investigation when reasonable people will say that facts are established beyond a reasonable doubt..."

That 'reasonable people' statement is pretty subjective, not very scientific.
And so you are basically saying there is some type of leap-of-faith involved here, although a very short one, but "a faith" none-the-less.
Pretty interesting. So it boils down to a quantity of faith thing?
Your theory requires less faith than my theory?
Hardly pure science.

225 posted on 03/11/2002 7:32:23 AM PST by Psalm 73
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To: Junior
"Gee, Homo Erectus comes before either of the latter two in the fossil record."

We are not talking complete skeletons here, but a few scattered fossile remnants of skeletons.
They do not have tons of data to pull this from.
A strong supposition is still a supposition.

226 posted on 03/11/2002 7:35:24 AM PST by Psalm 73
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To: Psalm 73
Something happened to the site or to my connection while I was trying to post a reply, so I lost it.

Essentially the answer to your question is yes. Scientists do have beliefs, and sometimes their beliefs are proved wrong. Sometimes they are not entirely wrong, but require modification.

What makes their beliefs scientific is that their assertions are cast in a form that allows them to be supported by evidence or proven wrong by evidence.

227 posted on 03/11/2002 7:53:14 AM PST by js1138
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To: js1138
Thank you for providing logical answers without calling me a "maroon", as most of those who put thier faith soley in the theory of (macro) evolution eventually resort do.
Most of the creationists who I know are pretty rational people, but also know there are some things that we are called to believe on faith.
Faith and rationality are not mutually exclusive.
It even takes a degree of faith to believe the entirety of evolution theory - it is not all wrapped up neat and tidy like a Christmas present.
Hey, at least we can all agree that Hillary and Bubba did not originate from either theory?
228 posted on 03/11/2002 8:29:29 AM PST by Psalm 73
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To: Dog Gone
Christians can easily accept evolution as fact. I'd argue that they should, except that I'm indifferent as to what people privately choose to believe.

I think the problem is that Fundie Christians tend not to believe privately...they believe evolution is the root of all evil and that it must be removed from school making conservatism look like the worlds biggest joke when it has some potential if they'd get progressive in the scientific community (their refusal to do so has made the conservative movement a joke) and realize that the war on drugs is absurd.

/rant

Anyway, they can't keep it to themselves. They have to force their scientific ignorance (under the guise of "scientific" creationism and "plausible" alternative explanations of creation) onto the public.

229 posted on 03/11/2002 10:16:44 AM PST by JediGirl
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To: JediGirl
That's the reason I phrased it as I did. I'm not indifferent as to what people publicly choose to believe, when it's actually an effort on their part to affect or control public policy issues.

At that point, I care very much.

230 posted on 03/11/2002 10:32:12 AM PST by Dog Gone
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To: Snidely Whiplash
I'm a degreed person in my field of expertise as well (U.S. History), and I could've made the same statement, and it would hold the same level of authority as your friend's statement. It's a meaningless assertion.

That is the point I attempted to make...he is degreed in biology, worked for a few years in nothing BUT research (and some of the research demonstrated problems with evolution).  And yet because he interprets data differently than the "norm" then his knowledge, experience, and expertise are wrong?  I don't doubt that the bulk of biologists subscribe to evolutionary theory as the way, but they do so, in my opinion, because (A) that is the established paradigm ("Holy Grail") of scientists today (much like Ptolemaic Theory was at the time of Galileo...I find it interesting that the scientists of that day manipulated their calculations to fit their idea of how the universe worked instead of seriously considering Galileo's Copernican model.  And it was the scientists of that day that convinced the religious leaders to accept the Ptolemaic dogma, thus the church's compromised views leading to the "heresy" issues...)  and you don't mess with the paradigm, and (B) That's where the money is for research.

Not knowing the particular realm of your friend's work, I cannot comment specifically, but let me just say this - many real-world technical laboratory jobs don't draw much on the actual biological knowledge of the person doing the job. To be clear, I'm talking about practical non-research type work.

Having observed my wife and her boss at work on any number of occasions, I know that with the same on-the-job training they received, any reasonably intelligent person could do the job quite competently. They have said as much themselves. Thus, detailed knowledge of biology or evolution isn't really necessary for the job, and won't come into play on any regular basis.

I agree with much of what you have said above.  However, I again clarify that my friend's statement regarded his biological research AND his practical application.

It's very kind of you to allow us to appeal to those authorities. Especially since those folks are pretty much everyone in the biological sciences.

The majority makes it right?  See above comments.

People who are inclined to believe in evolution because that's what "Dr. So-n-So says" are just as wrong as those who say that there is no credence to the study of evolution.

Well, they're "wrong" only in the sense that they're intellectually lazy, and haven't bothered to do any reading of their own. But then, everything that most people know is stuff that Other People Have Told Them, isn't it? Really, most of the survival of Creation "Science" revolves around people simply accepting what they read at face value, without bothering to check its accuracy, doesn't it?

Not so.  There are a significant number of scientists who are Creationists who validate their work.  I will grant you, though, that there are significant numbers of people who simply spout off that, "Well my preacher said it ain't so!"  Just about as many as shout, "Well my biology professor said it isso!"

My "beef" is not with the evidence displayed in biology, but rather with the one-sided interpretation of that data.  All data regarding this issue is interpreted within a framework.  I want people to be aware that there is more than one legitimate framework, and then let them decide which framework "fits" the evidence better.

Personally, I believe that science is at its best when it is like the marketplace...competing theories.

Yes, that's how we've arrived at Darwinian evolution as the best, most fitting explanation for the current state of affairs in the living world. Surely you don't think that when it was proposed by Darwin that it was widely and instantly accepted, do you?

No, but I wouldn't be shocked if we found out after reviewing history (your field of specialty, so you can let me know) whether or not the earliest adopters of this paradigm weren't looking for something to embrace that would finally allow them to try and "rule out" any possibility for the "Divine".

231 posted on 03/11/2002 10:37:52 AM PST by Elijah27
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To: Snidely Whiplash
I'm a degreed person in my field of expertise as well (U.S. History), and I could've made the same statement, and it would hold the same level of authority as your friend's statement. It's a meaningless assertion.

That is the point I attempted to make...he is degreed in biology, worked for a few years in nothing BUT research (and some of the research demonstrated problems with evolution).  And yet because he interprets data differently than the "norm" then his knowledge, experience, and expertise are wrong?  I don't doubt that the bulk of biologists subscribe to evolutionary theory as the way, but they do so, in my opinion, because (A) that is the established paradigm ("Holy Grail") of scientists today (much like Ptolemaic Theory was at the time of Galileo...I find it interesting that the scientists of that day manipulated their calculations to fit their idea of how the universe worked instead of seriously considering Galileo's Copernican model.  And it was the scientists of that day that convinced the religious leaders to accept the Ptolemaic dogma, thus the church's compromised views leading to the "heresy" issues...)  and you don't mess with the paradigm, and (B) That's where the money is for research.

Not knowing the particular realm of your friend's work, I cannot comment specifically, but let me just say this - many real-world technical laboratory jobs don't draw much on the actual biological knowledge of the person doing the job. To be clear, I'm talking about practical non-research type work.

Having observed my wife and her boss at work on any number of occasions, I know that with the same on-the-job training they received, any reasonably intelligent person could do the job quite competently. They have said as much themselves. Thus, detailed knowledge of biology or evolution isn't really necessary for the job, and won't come into play on any regular basis.

I agree with much of what you have said above.  However, I again clarify that my friend's statement regarded his biological research AND his practical application.

It's very kind of you to allow us to appeal to those authorities. Especially since those folks are pretty much everyone in the biological sciences.

The majority makes it right?  See above comments.

People who are inclined to believe in evolution because that's what "Dr. So-n-So says" are just as wrong as those who say that there is no credence to the study of evolution.

Well, they're "wrong" only in the sense that they're intellectually lazy, and haven't bothered to do any reading of their own. But then, everything that most people know is stuff that Other People Have Told Them, isn't it? Really, most of the survival of Creation "Science" revolves around people simply accepting what they read at face value, without bothering to check its accuracy, doesn't it?

Not so.  There are a significant number of scientists who are Creationists who validate their work.  I will grant you, though, that there are significant numbers of people who simply spout off that, "Well my preacher said it ain't so!"  Just about as many as shout, "Well my biology professor said it isso!"

My "beef" is not with the evidence displayed in biology, but rather with the one-sided interpretation of that data.  All data regarding this issue is interpreted within a framework.  I want people to be aware that there is more than one legitimate framework, and then let them decide which framework "fits" the evidence better.

Personally, I believe that science is at its best when it is like the marketplace...competing theories.

Yes, that's how we've arrived at Darwinian evolution as the best, most fitting explanation for the current state of affairs in the living world. Surely you don't think that when it was proposed by Darwin that it was widely and instantly accepted, do you?

No, but I wouldn't be shocked if we found out after reviewing history (your field of specialty, so you can let me know) whether or not the earliest adopters of this paradigm weren't looking for something to embrace that would finally allow them to try and "rule out" any possibility for the "Divine".

232 posted on 03/11/2002 10:38:48 AM PST by Elijah27
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To: Dimensio
Maybe she really does have a hole in her sole, in which case I propose we put together a fund drive to buy her a new pair of shoes.
233 posted on 03/11/2002 10:53:38 AM PST by Equality 7-2521
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To: Dimensio
More likely they [cats and dogs] shared a common ancestor somewhere far down the line

Nonsense, even a casual observation will show that cats are clearly of alien origin.

234 posted on 03/11/2002 10:56:37 AM PST by Equality 7-2521
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To: Equality 7-2521
Nonsense, even a casual observation will show that cats are clearly of alien origin.

Actually, one theory that I heard is that cats are the rulers of the universe. Their leader, a cat by the name of Queen Maeve who lives under the guise as a "pet" who is "owned" by a human named Micheal Keane (though in truth it is she who owns the human), created the entire universe last Thursday. The followers of this religion, the Church of Last Thursday, believe that those who worship and respect cats will become felines in the afterlife to be looked after by human slaves. Unbelievers will be cast into the Eternal Litterbox.

Personally, if Creationism is to be taught in schools, I don't see any reason why it can't be Last Thursdayism Creationism.
235 posted on 03/11/2002 11:02:28 AM PST by Dimensio
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To: Psalm 73
Sure, because one takes place within the species, and modifies the existing; and the other creats a whole new species. The quantity of new information required is just staggering, and where there is proof of the one, there is no witness to a brand new, unique species coming into being.

Argument from incredulity then?
236 posted on 03/11/2002 11:08:58 AM PST by Dimensio
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To: Dimensio
Do you know of a place where I could get more information on this Church of Last Thursday? As a human slave to cats, I am very interested in learning how I can one day become one of the cats.

There are few religions that I admire more than the ones that will grant me god status upon my death (or even better, at some point during my life). With that kind of reward at stake, why would anyone want to follow a religion that only offers them the opportunity to serve and worship some other entity for an eternity?

237 posted on 03/11/2002 11:21:38 AM PST by Equality 7-2521
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To: Equality 7-2521
Unfortunately the CoLT has declined on the internet in the past few years, but you should find plenty of information, including a FAQ, through either a web or USENET search on Google for "Church of Last Thursday".

The gist of the afterlife rewards is that it's not an either heaven or hell situation. Those who are truly subservient to cats, treating them with kindness and respect, will enter Paradise to be transformed into cats and served by slaves for all eternity. Those who do not meet those criteria but are not hostile to cats -- those indifferent for the most part -- will enter Paradise as slaves to the aformentioned cats. Those who are mean and cruel to cats are condemned to the Eternal Litterbox, which is never cleaned.
238 posted on 03/11/2002 11:25:49 AM PST by Dimensio
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To: Dimensio
Thank you, I have now read up on this at Church of Last Thursday FAQs. The choice between serving eternity as a virtual lapdog and slave to Yahweh or being a cat with my own slaves seems clear.
239 posted on 03/11/2002 11:35:30 AM PST by Equality 7-2521
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To: southland
RE Post 5: All religions are totally intolerant of all other religions by their very nature

Certainly, but not nearly as intolerant as all non-religions are of all other non-religions. Viz Communism, Fascism, etc.

Rippin

240 posted on 03/11/2002 11:36:06 AM PST by Rippin
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