Posted on 12/10/2023 12:53:16 PM PST by daniel1212
Partly, by responding that scientific discovery and knowledge does not warrant the premise that the universe and everything therein can (at least someday) all be attributed to purely natural processes.
Meaning that the atheist/antitheist position claim that there is no Creator/God, is one lacking in evidential warrant and requires great faith. For it can only presume that an exceedingly vast, systematically ordered, intricate universe,* exquisitely finely tuned for earthly life with its extensive diversity and astounding complexity, came to be by known (or potentially known), purely natural demonstrable powers, as if it was Divine, without any supreme supernatural intelligence behind it.
And while man- using His God-given intelligence - has discovered causes and means of many things (like lighting) that were once attributed by some to purely supernatural causes, these are discoveries of how God created natural things to work, using laws He ordained, yet which are beside actions for organization of matter, and the programming of it which require supernatural powers and intelligence.
Moreover, rather than a trajectory of scientific discovery leading to a purely natural explanation of the universe, instead, the more that is discovered then the more perplexing competing hypotheses become
and the more absurd the atheistic denial of a creator becomes.For the Christian the evidence comports to the omniscient omnipotent God of the Bible as being the Ultimate First Cause, organizer and programmer.
Moreover, addressing the moral argument of antithiests, God, due to His very nature of knowing what every effect will be of every one of man’s choices - not only for this life but for eternity - has in that light a reason for His choices, including enabling man to make choices between alternatives - right or wrong - (unlike perfect robots) and thus effect consequences, for good as well as for bad, which to varying degrees affect others.
And unlike man, as omnipotent, God alone can make all things to ultimately work out for Good, with justice as well as mercy and grace;
And which Being cannot be judged regarding His choices by finite and exceedingly ignorant man as specks in this darkened corner of the universe, existing on earth in but a moment of time. Despite the ignorant railings of antithiests who essential must presume omniscience in charging an all-knowing God of immorality, while themselves have no sure supreme standard for morality, much less knowing what every effect will be of every one of man’s choices and the ability to make it all work out for what is objectively Good in the light of all that can be know.
Many of which atheists even deny a creator as a hypothesis and regardless of whatever evidence could be offered, as well as for the historicity of the Biblical Christ.
*
2. https://www.discovery.org/m/2020/06/Fine-Tuning-Parameters-Jay-Richards.pdf
6. 'God: new evidence' - the fine tuning of the universe - part 1
7. When science and philosophy collide in a 'fine-tuned' universe
10. We Live in a Very Fortunate Universe
11. List of Fine-Tuning Parameters
12. List of Factors of Fine-Tuning of Intelligent Life in the Universe
13. Can DNA Prove the Existence of an Intelligent Designer?
14. [God DNA] Proves Presence of God” says Scientists
15. 82 Mind-Blowing Facts about DNA | FactRetriever.com
16. 'God: new evidence' - the fine tuning of the universe - part 1
17. Evidence for the Fine Tuning of the Universe
18. It Takes 26 Fundamental Constants To Give Us Our Universe, But They Still Don't Give Everything
19. The Universe as We Understand It May Be Impossible
Is There Any Evidence for Jesus Outside the Bible?
20. Ancient Evidence for Jesus from Non-Christian Sources
21. Is Jesus Alive?
24. Dawkins [essentially] Admits Nothing Can Persuade Him God Exists
A list of 60 aspects are cited as regards the above is https://wng.org/roundups/a-fine-tuned-universe-1617224984
Quotes:
"according to many physicists, the fact that the universe is able to support life depends delicately on various of its fundamental characteristics, notably on the form of the laws of nature, on the values of some constants of nature, and on aspects of the universe’s conditions in its very early stages." https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/fine-tuning/ A listing of such follows.
“I find it quite improbable that such order came out of chaos. There has to be some organizing principle. God to me is a mystery but is the explanation for the miracle of existence, why there is something instead of nothing.” - Alan Sandage (winner of the Crawford prize in astronomy) Willford, J.N. March 12, 1991. Sizing up the Cosmos: An Astronomers Quest. New York Times, p. B9.
“Amazing fine tuning occurs in the laws that make this [complexity] possible. Realization of the complexity of what is accomplished makes it very difficult not to use the word ‘miraculous’ without taking a stand as to the ontological status of the word.” - George Ellis (British astrophysicist) Ellis, G.F.R. 1993. The Anthropic Principle: Laws and Environments. The Anthropic Principle, F. Bertola and U.Curi, ed. New York, Cambridge University Press, p. 30
“We are, by astronomical standards, a pampered, cosseted, cherished group of creatures.. .. If the Universe had not been made with the most exacting precision we could never have come into existence. It is my view that these circumstances indicate the universe was created for man to live in.” - John O’Keefe (astronomer at NASA) Heeren, F. 1995. Show Me God. Wheeling, IL, Searchlight Publications, p. 200.
“As we look out into the universe and identify the many accidents of physics and astronomy that have worked together to our benefit, it almost seems as if the universe must in some sense have known that we were coming.” - Professor Freeman J. of the Institute for Advanced Study in Princeton
“The statistical probability that organic structures and the most precisely harmonized reactions that typify living organisms would be generated by accident, is zero.” - Ilya Prigogine (Chemist-Physicist) Recipient of two Nobel Prizes in chemistry in, "Physics Today" 25, pp. 23-28
“The really amazing thing is not that life on Earth is balanced on a knife-edge, but that the entire universe is balanced on a knife-edge, and would be total chaos if any of the natural ‘constants’ were off even slightly. - - Dr. Paul Davies, esteemed author and Professor of Theoretical Physics at Adelaide University.
“...how surprising it is that the laws of nature and the initial conditions of the universe should allow for the existence of beings who could observe it. Life as we know it would be impossible if any one of several physical quantities had slightly different values.” - Professor Steven Weinberg (Nobel Laureate in High Energy Physics [a field of science that deals with the very early universe], writing in the journal “Scientific American”.)
16O has exactly the right nuclear energy level either to prevent all the carbon from turning into oxygen or to facilitate sufficient production of 16O for life. Fred Hoyle, who discovered these coincidences in 1953, concluded that “a superintellect has monkeyed with physics, as well as with chemistry and biology.” - Hoyle, Fred. “The Universe: Past and Present Reflections,” in Annual Review of Astronomy and Astrophysics, 20. (1982), p.16 (for more of these coincidences click here)
“If you equate the probability of the birth of a bacteria cell to chance assembly of its atoms, eternity will not suffice to produce one… Faced with the enormous sum of lucky draws behind the success of the evolutionary game, one may legitimately wonder to what extent this success is actually written into the fabric of the universe.” - Christian de Duve. “A Guided Tour of the Living Cell” (Nobel laureate and organic chemist)
“...The capacity of DNA to store information vastly exceeds that of any other known system: it is so efficient that all the information needed to specify an organism as complex as man weighs less than a few thousand millionths of a gram. The information necessary to specify the design of all the species of organisms which have ever existed on the planet…could be held in a teaspoon and there would still be room left for all the information in every book ever written…” - Dr. Michael Denton (Australian microbiologist)
As regards “order,” from another non-Christian:
“The order of the universe is not an assumption; it’s an observed fact. We detect the light from distant quasars only because the laws of electromagnetism are the same 10 billion light years away as here. The spectra of those quasars are recognizable only because the same chemical elements are present there as here, and because the same laws of quantum mechanics apply. The motion of galaxies around one another follows familiar Newtonian gravity. Gravitational lenses and binary pulsar spin-downs reveal general relativity in the depths of space. We could have lived in a universe with different laws in every province, but we do not. This fact cannot but elicit feelings of reverence and awe.” ― Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark
*As Albert Einstein observed, " We see a universe marvelously arranged, obeying certain laws, but we understand the laws only dimly. Our limited minds cannot grasp the mysterious force that sways the constellations."
“I find it quite improbable that such order came out of chaos. There has to be some organizing principle. God to me is a mystery but is the explanation for the miracle of existence, why there is something instead of nothing.” - Alan Sandage (winner of the Crawford prize in astronomy) Willford, J.N. March 12, 1991. Sizing up the Cosmos: An Astronomers Quest. New York Times, p. B9.
“Amazing fine tuning occurs in the laws that make this [complexity] possible. Realization of the complexity of what is accomplished makes it very difficult not to use the word ‘miraculous’ without taking a stand as to the ontological status of the word.” - George Ellis (British astrophysicist) Ellis, G.F.R. 1993. The Anthropic Principle: Laws and Environments. The Anthropic Principle, F. Bertola and U.Curi, ed. New York, Cambridge University Press, p. 30
“We are, by astronomical standards, a pampered, cosseted, cherished group of creatures.. .. If the Universe had not been made with the most exacting precision we could never have come into existence. It is my view that these circumstances indicate the universe was created for man to live in.” - John O’Keefe (astronomer at NASA) Heeren, F. 1995. Show Me God. Wheeling, IL, Searchlight Publications, p. 200.
“As we look out into the universe and identify the many accidents of physics and astronomy that have worked together to our benefit, it almost seems as if the universe must in some sense have known that we were coming.” - Professor Freeman J. of the Institute for Advanced Study in Princeton
“The statistical probability that organic structures and the most precisely harmonized reactions that typify living organisms would be generated by accident, is zero.” - Ilya Prigogine (Chemist-Physicist) Recipient of two Nobel Prizes in chemistry in, "Physics Today" 25, pp. 23-28
“The really amazing thing is not that life on Earth is balanced on a knife-edge, but that the entire universe is balanced on a knife-edge, and would be total chaos if any of the natural ‘constants’ were off even slightly. - - Dr. Paul Davies, esteemed author and Professor of Theoretical Physics at Adelaide University.
“...how surprising it is that the laws of nature and the initial conditions of the universe should allow for the existence of beings who could observe it. Life as we know it would be impossible if any one of several physical quantities had slightly different values.” - Professor Steven Weinberg (Nobel Laureate in High Energy Physics [a field of science that deals with the very early universe], writing in the journal “Scientific American”.)
16O has exactly the right nuclear energy level either to prevent all the carbon from turning into oxygen or to facilitate sufficient production of 16O for life. Fred Hoyle, who discovered these coincidences in 1953, concluded that “a superintellect has monkeyed with physics, as well as with chemistry and biology.” - Hoyle, Fred. “The Universe: Past and Present Reflections,” in Annual Review of Astronomy and Astrophysics, 20. (1982), p.16 (for more of these coincidences click here)
“If you equate the probability of the birth of a bacteria cell to chance assembly of its atoms, eternity will not suffice to produce one… Faced with the enormous sum of lucky draws behind the success of the evolutionary game, one may legitimately wonder to what extent this success is actually written into the fabric of the universe.” - Christian de Duve. “A Guided Tour of the Living Cell” (Nobel laureate and organic chemist)
“...The capacity of DNA to store information vastly exceeds that of any other known system: it is so efficient that all the information needed to specify an organism as complex as man weighs less than a few thousand millionths of a gram. The information necessary to specify the design of all the species of organisms which have ever existed on the planet…could be held in a teaspoon and there would still be room left for all the information in every book ever written…” - Dr. Michael Denton (Australian microbiologist)
For non-seeking atheists, like their rebel master, their denial of God and rejection of a supreme judge even as a hypothesis, their adament position due to their unconscious desire to be as God, as the supreme judge (atheism being a progression of idolatry) rather than being subject to Him.
Thus, they effectively presume omniscience in sitting in moral judgment upon an omniscient and omnipotent creator (at least of the Bible). Who cannot be judged since the choices of an omniscient and omnipotent creator are made in the light of His unique knowledge of what all the effects will be of every choice, not only in this brief time, but for eternity.
And who can - as He promises to do - make all to work out for what is Good, with justice towards the idolaters, and mercy and grace toward those who want what God represents, and thus seek and find The Light, The Way The Truth and The Life, by the grace of God. (Romans 2:7
the rulers don’t
until trains, all ‘time’ was sun local
The big difference between schizophrenia voices and hearing God’s voice is the level at which the person is connecting.
The level a schizophrenic hears voices causes them to deal with impostors as they have no discernment.
When you reach the higher levels of consciousness, the Love and Light is so bright that the impostors cannot come near you. They fear that the Love & Light radiating through you will dispell their darkness and kill them.
This is how Jesus casts out demons and unclean spirits. This is how exorcisms are done.
I’ve worked with and read the souls of people with schizophrenia. I’ve worked with young people who used drugs one time and developed schizophrenia for life. Their consciousness flow pattern is unique in that they have no defined sense of self or ego as a containment vessel for their emotional consciousness. Their delusions happen as they do not have full use of their prefrontal cortex where analytical and logical thought processing occurs. Thus they have very little discernment and become delusional.
This same pattern is happening in general society today. People are in a trance or hypnotic state and hyper suggestable to propaganda, without discernment. It’s sad to see it happen.
🙏
And it's both Scientific and Theistic.
backstory...
Growing up, I didn't attend 'church' except a little when visiting relatives.
Most of my 'learning' came thru whatever was the prevailing culture in America at the time.
I'd had the standard US public education (40's - 50's) up to high school and then I joined the Air Force.
During tech school training in Denver, I was dating this local girl who lived close to the base.
One crisp fall evening, we'd been watching the boob tube - Late Night Movie. It was about some miracle(s) at Lordes. Now the girl was interested in the movie, while I was more interested in trying to do things that'll getcha in a position to NEVER be considered for the Supreme Court. Needless to say; I knew as much about the female gender as rocket science; so at least SHE'LL will never be able to Kavanaugh me!
Anyway; upon leaving her house early in the morning, I was walking back to the base; about 1.5 miles IIRC; thinking of the movie. Sorry; but I could not see any 'god' in those healings or whatever.
I was a rational sort; the kind that put his faith in what I could figger out for himself. I went clear back to the teaching I'd gotten about the Big Bang and evolution and the stuff that school wants you to understand.
The clear Colorado night sky was ablaze with stars in that mile high air. "Yeah!", I thought. "After the BB everything was formed and earth and everything came to be and the primordial goo got to churnin' and then little squally things came to pass and then the fishys and the birds and the cows and the apes and finally Man and then ME!"
That Einstein was RIGHT!
E=mc2 explained it all!!
Happy that a vexing movie was now debunked; I continued toward the base, mulling over mass and energy and light (Darn near none of which did I really understand).
Happy that Einstein's equation had gelled my thoughts on the problem, my analytical brain coughed up the fact that equations can be re-written and they are still true.
Thus E=mc2 could be rearranged to be...
m=E/c2
So there it was; all that MASS in the universe; all them stars out there; all them planets and moons and meteors and bugs and birds and me - all MASS!
As I neared the guard at the gate; an idea, a thought, a whisper, or a Voice said to me, "So... where did the ENERGY come from?"
Any of those other religions have a SAVIOR?
They sure can!
It's right there in the bible:
If there is no GOD then there is no basis for evil in the world.
Animals have no god, and if you are treated badly (by your standards) by another species (or your own); you have no recourse other than to suck it up and keep on truckin’.
Nope - reveivers
When we finally get down to the bottom turtle; all will become clear. Crystal.
Some folks on FR are talkin' 'bout GOD again; and I'm gettin' scared again, and...
..make them QUIT!
This is what happens when you bring a mirror to a knife fight.
Step back and look at Christianity. It is excellent teaching for the human soul to grow.
Please read Jesus’s explanation of the parable of the tares in the wheat at the end of Matthew 13 when the Disciples asked for help to understand the parable.
Matthew 13:37 He(Jesus) answered, “The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.
40 “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear.”
Humans are souls that are planted here in the darkness of the earth to sprout and grow. They are a crop of consciousness that begins as an individual seed and then grows to be One with God.
They exist within God already, but are unaware of it.
God’s Higher Consciousness is a purifying fire for all things unclean. Obstacles to Love cannot exist in the Higher levels of consciousness.
Just as a dense object placed in the high frequency of a microwave heats up and catches on fire,so it is with souls that embrace sin when the Holy Spirit moves in.
This is why the ultimate sin is to reject the Holy Spirit.
There are three stages to soul growth in a physical body. First is dependency where the feminine emotional child develops.
About age 8 or 9, roughly third grade when they start long division and multiplication, the second stage, the logical masculine consciousness begins to develop. This is the ego self, or self actualization.
Jesus taught us how to enter the third stage or self transcendence. When a person goes through mid-life crisis, the ego gets crushed. The attachment to individual identity is diminished.
In EEG studies, they show that at this point in life, the Theta frequencies of consciousness of the feminine emotional child begin to synchronize and harmonize with the Beta frequencies of consciousness of the logical masculine self.
This period is a rollercoaster of emotions as all unresolved obstacles to Love in the soul surface for an opportunity for resolution. This is necessary, as without Love, the logical masculine and the emotional feminine consciousness cannot merge and become one in the eyes of God. Love is the glue that binds the consciousness of the soul together and stabilizes it.
When a person becomes whole, balanced in their masculine and feminine and bound with Love, consciousness shifts to the gamma frequency. This is the frequency of the mystics. When consciousness reaches this frequency, transcendance has just begun. You begin to perceive beyond your physical body, directly with your consciousness.
As your soul grows, you become aware that you really do exist in Jesus and Jesus exists in you. Communion is real and not just a theoretical metaphoric drinking of wine.
This is the “raising up” that many call rapture. There are many, many levels.
I say these things based upon actual experiences and my own perception of those experiences, not the theories of others. I always reserve the right to be wrong, as what is true at one level of consciousness is not necessarily true at other levels.
Enough for now... I must run.
🙏
I have no ‘frequencies’ to tune to;
no ‘consciences’ to delve into;
no ‘past lives’ to ponder;
no ‘alien DNA’ to reject.
I’m just a destitute sinner;
bound for hell if no one saves me.
I was doing the same work as Newton and Weiss before they wrote their books. I chose to not publish as that attaches you to an identity and hinders further growth.
The same was true of exorcisms and spirit releasement before Baldwin wrote his comprehensive book on the topic.
The real learning is in the experience. When I died, it was like a guided tour of Heaven and consciousness. Then I learned to recreate the experiences in meditation.
I tried staying in Heaven and abandon this physical body about a month ago during surgery, but they sent me back as the work is about to begin on earth. It’s about to get real interesting.
🙏
You can believe you can swim, but reality hits when you jump in the water.
We know only so much about the origin and future of the universe. Everything yet unknown could be thought of as something else we’ve already given various other names to. If it’s true that the more we learn the less we know, then there may may be eons of time in any direction for us and/or other forms of intelligent life for pondering and subsequently realizing their existence. In the meantime, we can believe what we want to believe if if we insist on arriving at foregone conclusions in our own lifetimes. There is no problem, unless further discovery represents a problem for those who have settled on their religion’s explanation(s), however ancient.
dear elsie, WHAT or which part, as you say, ‘don’t make no sense”?
you’ve got menu A, ‘its all god’
meniu B, ‘no god’ ,
Menu C, scientist saying we can explain most, with the people declaring that the remnant is god,
Menu D, it looks like magick and sorcery, but we think that is god, too
.
Your spellings/or lack thereof...
at one time, ‘it’ was either magick/sorcery or the gods.a time later, it was still ‘m’/’s’ or the go d.
a time more, the debate between the god or neginning science.
today, you have that half-boat buildet in kenticky stating its all the god, the atheist stating no god, the scientist pushing back on no god and its m/s.
whatever is experiential to the individual, is best defimed in the box of the individual, because that which happened cannot be duplivated for verification.
whether that be divine, m/s, or happenstance.
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