Posted on 12/10/2023 12:53:16 PM PST by daniel1212
Partly, by responding that scientific discovery and knowledge does not warrant the premise that the universe and everything therein can (at least someday) all be attributed to purely natural processes.
Meaning that the atheist/antitheist position claim that there is no Creator/God, is one lacking in evidential warrant and requires great faith. For it can only presume that an exceedingly vast, systematically ordered, intricate universe,* exquisitely finely tuned for earthly life with its extensive diversity and astounding complexity, came to be by known (or potentially known), purely natural demonstrable powers, as if it was Divine, without any supreme supernatural intelligence behind it.
And while man- using His God-given intelligence - has discovered causes and means of many things (like lighting) that were once attributed by some to purely supernatural causes, these are discoveries of how God created natural things to work, using laws He ordained, yet which are beside actions for organization of matter, and the programming of it which require supernatural powers and intelligence.
Moreover, rather than a trajectory of scientific discovery leading to a purely natural explanation of the universe, instead, the more that is discovered then the more perplexing competing hypotheses become
and the more absurd the atheistic denial of a creator becomes.For the Christian the evidence comports to the omniscient omnipotent God of the Bible as being the Ultimate First Cause, organizer and programmer.
Moreover, addressing the moral argument of antithiests, God, due to His very nature of knowing what every effect will be of every one of man’s choices - not only for this life but for eternity - has in that light a reason for His choices, including enabling man to make choices between alternatives - right or wrong - (unlike perfect robots) and thus effect consequences, for good as well as for bad, which to varying degrees affect others.
And unlike man, as omnipotent, God alone can make all things to ultimately work out for Good, with justice as well as mercy and grace;
And which Being cannot be judged regarding His choices by finite and exceedingly ignorant man as specks in this darkened corner of the universe, existing on earth in but a moment of time. Despite the ignorant railings of antithiests who essential must presume omniscience in charging an all-knowing God of immorality, while themselves have no sure supreme standard for morality, much less knowing what every effect will be of every one of man’s choices and the ability to make it all work out for what is objectively Good in the light of all that can be know.
Many of which atheists even deny a creator as a hypothesis and regardless of whatever evidence could be offered, as well as for the historicity of the Biblical Christ.
*
2. https://www.discovery.org/m/2020/06/Fine-Tuning-Parameters-Jay-Richards.pdf
6. 'God: new evidence' - the fine tuning of the universe - part 1
7. When science and philosophy collide in a 'fine-tuned' universe
10. We Live in a Very Fortunate Universe
11. List of Fine-Tuning Parameters
12. List of Factors of Fine-Tuning of Intelligent Life in the Universe
13. Can DNA Prove the Existence of an Intelligent Designer?
14. [God DNA] Proves Presence of God” says Scientists
15. 82 Mind-Blowing Facts about DNA | FactRetriever.com
16. 'God: new evidence' - the fine tuning of the universe - part 1
17. Evidence for the Fine Tuning of the Universe
18. It Takes 26 Fundamental Constants To Give Us Our Universe, But They Still Don't Give Everything
19. The Universe as We Understand It May Be Impossible
Is There Any Evidence for Jesus Outside the Bible?
20. Ancient Evidence for Jesus from Non-Christian Sources
21. Is Jesus Alive?
24. Dawkins [essentially] Admits Nothing Can Persuade Him God Exists
A list of 60 aspects are cited as regards the above is https://wng.org/roundups/a-fine-tuned-universe-1617224984
Quotes:
"according to many physicists, the fact that the universe is able to support life depends delicately on various of its fundamental characteristics, notably on the form of the laws of nature, on the values of some constants of nature, and on aspects of the universe’s conditions in its very early stages." https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/fine-tuning/ A listing of such follows.
“I find it quite improbable that such order came out of chaos. There has to be some organizing principle. God to me is a mystery but is the explanation for the miracle of existence, why there is something instead of nothing.” - Alan Sandage (winner of the Crawford prize in astronomy) Willford, J.N. March 12, 1991. Sizing up the Cosmos: An Astronomers Quest. New York Times, p. B9.
“Amazing fine tuning occurs in the laws that make this [complexity] possible. Realization of the complexity of what is accomplished makes it very difficult not to use the word ‘miraculous’ without taking a stand as to the ontological status of the word.” - George Ellis (British astrophysicist) Ellis, G.F.R. 1993. The Anthropic Principle: Laws and Environments. The Anthropic Principle, F. Bertola and U.Curi, ed. New York, Cambridge University Press, p. 30
“We are, by astronomical standards, a pampered, cosseted, cherished group of creatures.. .. If the Universe had not been made with the most exacting precision we could never have come into existence. It is my view that these circumstances indicate the universe was created for man to live in.” - John O’Keefe (astronomer at NASA) Heeren, F. 1995. Show Me God. Wheeling, IL, Searchlight Publications, p. 200.
“As we look out into the universe and identify the many accidents of physics and astronomy that have worked together to our benefit, it almost seems as if the universe must in some sense have known that we were coming.” - Professor Freeman J. of the Institute for Advanced Study in Princeton
“The statistical probability that organic structures and the most precisely harmonized reactions that typify living organisms would be generated by accident, is zero.” - Ilya Prigogine (Chemist-Physicist) Recipient of two Nobel Prizes in chemistry in, "Physics Today" 25, pp. 23-28
“The really amazing thing is not that life on Earth is balanced on a knife-edge, but that the entire universe is balanced on a knife-edge, and would be total chaos if any of the natural ‘constants’ were off even slightly. - - Dr. Paul Davies, esteemed author and Professor of Theoretical Physics at Adelaide University.
“...how surprising it is that the laws of nature and the initial conditions of the universe should allow for the existence of beings who could observe it. Life as we know it would be impossible if any one of several physical quantities had slightly different values.” - Professor Steven Weinberg (Nobel Laureate in High Energy Physics [a field of science that deals with the very early universe], writing in the journal “Scientific American”.)
16O has exactly the right nuclear energy level either to prevent all the carbon from turning into oxygen or to facilitate sufficient production of 16O for life. Fred Hoyle, who discovered these coincidences in 1953, concluded that “a superintellect has monkeyed with physics, as well as with chemistry and biology.” - Hoyle, Fred. “The Universe: Past and Present Reflections,” in Annual Review of Astronomy and Astrophysics, 20. (1982), p.16 (for more of these coincidences click here)
“If you equate the probability of the birth of a bacteria cell to chance assembly of its atoms, eternity will not suffice to produce one… Faced with the enormous sum of lucky draws behind the success of the evolutionary game, one may legitimately wonder to what extent this success is actually written into the fabric of the universe.” - Christian de Duve. “A Guided Tour of the Living Cell” (Nobel laureate and organic chemist)
“...The capacity of DNA to store information vastly exceeds that of any other known system: it is so efficient that all the information needed to specify an organism as complex as man weighs less than a few thousand millionths of a gram. The information necessary to specify the design of all the species of organisms which have ever existed on the planet…could be held in a teaspoon and there would still be room left for all the information in every book ever written…” - Dr. Michael Denton (Australian microbiologist)
As regards “order,” from another non-Christian:
“The order of the universe is not an assumption; it’s an observed fact. We detect the light from distant quasars only because the laws of electromagnetism are the same 10 billion light years away as here. The spectra of those quasars are recognizable only because the same chemical elements are present there as here, and because the same laws of quantum mechanics apply. The motion of galaxies around one another follows familiar Newtonian gravity. Gravitational lenses and binary pulsar spin-downs reveal general relativity in the depths of space. We could have lived in a universe with different laws in every province, but we do not. This fact cannot but elicit feelings of reverence and awe.” ― Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark
*As Albert Einstein observed, " We see a universe marvelously arranged, obeying certain laws, but we understand the laws only dimly. Our limited minds cannot grasp the mysterious force that sways the constellations."
“I find it quite improbable that such order came out of chaos. There has to be some organizing principle. God to me is a mystery but is the explanation for the miracle of existence, why there is something instead of nothing.” - Alan Sandage (winner of the Crawford prize in astronomy) Willford, J.N. March 12, 1991. Sizing up the Cosmos: An Astronomers Quest. New York Times, p. B9.
“Amazing fine tuning occurs in the laws that make this [complexity] possible. Realization of the complexity of what is accomplished makes it very difficult not to use the word ‘miraculous’ without taking a stand as to the ontological status of the word.” - George Ellis (British astrophysicist) Ellis, G.F.R. 1993. The Anthropic Principle: Laws and Environments. The Anthropic Principle, F. Bertola and U.Curi, ed. New York, Cambridge University Press, p. 30
“We are, by astronomical standards, a pampered, cosseted, cherished group of creatures.. .. If the Universe had not been made with the most exacting precision we could never have come into existence. It is my view that these circumstances indicate the universe was created for man to live in.” - John O’Keefe (astronomer at NASA) Heeren, F. 1995. Show Me God. Wheeling, IL, Searchlight Publications, p. 200.
“As we look out into the universe and identify the many accidents of physics and astronomy that have worked together to our benefit, it almost seems as if the universe must in some sense have known that we were coming.” - Professor Freeman J. of the Institute for Advanced Study in Princeton
“The statistical probability that organic structures and the most precisely harmonized reactions that typify living organisms would be generated by accident, is zero.” - Ilya Prigogine (Chemist-Physicist) Recipient of two Nobel Prizes in chemistry in, "Physics Today" 25, pp. 23-28
“The really amazing thing is not that life on Earth is balanced on a knife-edge, but that the entire universe is balanced on a knife-edge, and would be total chaos if any of the natural ‘constants’ were off even slightly. - - Dr. Paul Davies, esteemed author and Professor of Theoretical Physics at Adelaide University.
“...how surprising it is that the laws of nature and the initial conditions of the universe should allow for the existence of beings who could observe it. Life as we know it would be impossible if any one of several physical quantities had slightly different values.” - Professor Steven Weinberg (Nobel Laureate in High Energy Physics [a field of science that deals with the very early universe], writing in the journal “Scientific American”.)
16O has exactly the right nuclear energy level either to prevent all the carbon from turning into oxygen or to facilitate sufficient production of 16O for life. Fred Hoyle, who discovered these coincidences in 1953, concluded that “a superintellect has monkeyed with physics, as well as with chemistry and biology.” - Hoyle, Fred. “The Universe: Past and Present Reflections,” in Annual Review of Astronomy and Astrophysics, 20. (1982), p.16 (for more of these coincidences click here)
“If you equate the probability of the birth of a bacteria cell to chance assembly of its atoms, eternity will not suffice to produce one… Faced with the enormous sum of lucky draws behind the success of the evolutionary game, one may legitimately wonder to what extent this success is actually written into the fabric of the universe.” - Christian de Duve. “A Guided Tour of the Living Cell” (Nobel laureate and organic chemist)
“...The capacity of DNA to store information vastly exceeds that of any other known system: it is so efficient that all the information needed to specify an organism as complex as man weighs less than a few thousand millionths of a gram. The information necessary to specify the design of all the species of organisms which have ever existed on the planet…could be held in a teaspoon and there would still be room left for all the information in every book ever written…” - Dr. Michael Denton (Australian microbiologist)
For non-seeking atheists, like their rebel master, their denial of God and rejection of a supreme judge even as a hypothesis, their adament position due to their unconscious desire to be as God, as the supreme judge (atheism being a progression of idolatry) rather than being subject to Him.
Thus, they effectively presume omniscience in sitting in moral judgment upon an omniscient and omnipotent creator (at least of the Bible). Who cannot be judged since the choices of an omniscient and omnipotent creator are made in the light of His unique knowledge of what all the effects will be of every choice, not only in this brief time, but for eternity.
And who can - as He promises to do - make all to work out for what is Good, with justice towards the idolaters, and mercy and grace toward those who want what God represents, and thus seek and find The Light, The Way The Truth and The Life, by the grace of God. (Romans 2:7
Ping, by the grace of God.
It’s possible.
Will know for sure when we drop dead...
If someone can explain to me how chaos becomes orderly without at least intelligent design, I’d like to hear it.
At the end of the day it’s all about faith in the unproven.
We all choose our own path.
Anyone that tells you they “Know” is full of Sh*t.
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuseRomans 1:20.
Intelligent creation requires an intelligent Creator.
Next.
EXACTLY! Religion boils down to having faith that our belief is true.
Look out your window.
Atheists (who claim to be pro-science, by the way. This will be important) claim that lack of evidence is evidence in itself for God’s non-existence. But that is completely contrary to the scientific method. Evidence is evidence, not the lack of it. They are not pro-science in this case.
I would respond by saying that the existence of God CAN be proved scientifically, then point to Foundations of Faith, Practical Essays on Christian Evidences by Samuel G. Dawson, available at Amazon. Dawson is a physicist and he proves it in 16 pages using the first and second laws of thermodynamics.
My response: Okay.
Yes, it’s possible under that scenario. From there Science* can move on to probabilities, which Science* loves when it comes to Global Disaster-ing, but probably hates when it comes to this subject.
The most doctrinaire is the atheist. His is the most tightly held belief.
The agnostic allows for both the existence and non-existance of God.
Not the atheist. Nope! He has a certainty that, arguably, exceeds the belief structure of the theist!
Yes MCB, and your last sentence applies well to a lot of prior science considered “proven” as well.
If someone can explain to me how chaos becomes orderly without at least intelligent design, I’d like to hear it.
It only looks like design but it is really chaos.
I kid you not...........................
My answer to someone who said that would be, “You are off to a good start. You have caught up to Blaise Pascal. Now go read Dennis Prager’s Rational Bible books and after that we can talk about the New Testament.”
for those who believe, no explanation is necessary
for those that don’t, none is good enough...
...with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. (Matthew 7:2)By the "lack of evidence is evidence in itself" reasoning they cannot be God-excluding atheists since there is a critical lack of evidence that the Universe created itself, while the weight of evidence weighs in favor of their being a supreme supernatural intelligence behind it - at the least.
Jesus speaking to the Jews: "Abraham said to him (to the rich man indifferent to suffering Lazarus) ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’ ” - Luke 16:31
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