Prophetic Synchronicity

I want to spend time in this article discussing two concepts that I think encapsulate the times in which we live. Ironically, both concepts are from the late psychiatrist Carl Jung, who, along with Sigmund Freud and Friedrich Nietzsche, make up the triumvirate of 19th-20th century’s “greatest minds” when it comes to understanding human behavior, humanist philosophy, and the human mind. To my knowledge, Jung was not a born-again believer.

With that said, he was an intelligent man who attempted to understand the human condition apart from the Bible, which means he did not start from a position of truth and wisdom. If anything, he attempted to look at the human condition through the eyes of both the Chinese (I Ching) and Indian philosophies (Rig Vedas and the Upanishads). Nevertheless, in his ignorance of true wisdom (Proverbs 1:7), the threefold nature of man (1 Thess. 5:23), and man’s brokenness (Romans 3:23), his observations apart from truth are what is interesting.

The first concept is the word ‘synchronicity’ which interestingly popped up in my search bar the other day when I was looking up a song by the former rock band, The Police. Synchronicity was an album title they used back in the early 1980s and for some reason, that word resonated with me this time in a weird way. I’d seen it before, and even on rare occasions, I think, used it myself to describe some weird coincidence. But it’s not a concept I spent any real-time thinking about or even diving into, primarily because I tend to loathe modern psychiatry and psychology and its general anti-God bent. Carl Jung describes synchronicity as follows:

Modern psychology generally begins from a position that humans are purely biological-chemical and that we evolved, and were not created. They also tend to ignore what the Bible says about being born with a sinful nature. Nevertheless, Jung’s hyper-fixation on the nuances of the human condition is represented in his theorizing on things like shadow, archetypes, collective unconscious, synchronicity, and the complexico oppositorum. In layman’s terms, ‘synchronicity’ simply means, meaningful coincidence, as if the universe itself were giving you the answer you were seeking through seemingly unconnected events. One journalist describes it like this.

I used to be a reporter for the Cincinnati Enquirer, back in my 20s, and for roughly half of my decade-long tenure there I kept hearing a call to quit and become a freelance writer, a decision I largely ignored for years because it was Scary Stuff. However, after years of trying to ignore this call, the signs pointing toward it took on a whole new tack. This is how it began:

I was driving home from work one day, listening to a song on the radio called “Desperado,” by the Eagles, and as I pulled up to the curb in front of my house, the last line I heard before I turned off the car was “Don’t you draw the Queen of Diamonds, she’ll beat you if she’s able; the Queen of Hearts is always your best bet.” I turned off the ignition, opened the door, stepped my foot onto the curb, and there at my left foot was a playing card—the Queen of Hearts…(Source)

Now, I’m positive that everyone reading this has had an example(s) of synchronicity in their own lives as have I. The main difference being, whereas the unbeliever might attribute an event like this to either luck or fate, born-again believers would attribute these things to God, or at least some kind of ‘spiritual interference.’ In his cognizant attempt to assign meaning to these tangential events, he failed to address the source of these events appropriately. These things are not the ‘universe’ given you the answer, because the universe is not a living intelligent thing that could do that. Rather, these events are spiritually derived. The second concept is that of the complexico oppositorum or opposites for short.

Complexico oppositorum is simply the reality that evil, or the shadow, cannot be dismissed as a mere side-effect of the good. Evil is a fundamental component of existence. This fact alone places chaos and evil inside the order of God’s cosmos – and produces unfathomable madness and uncertainty among the spiritually inclined. (Source)

For Jung, evil’s existence was very much like the Chinese Yin and Yang. Evil complements the good much the same way darkness contrasts with the light. For if there was no evil, then we would not know what is good, or that the definition of good would be rather meaningless.

However, as Christians, even though we understand that while evil is both a spiritual and physical reality (something even the ungodly acknowledge to varying degrees), evil is not a requirement for God’s universe to exist. For example, during the Millennial Kingdom, evil will be greatly constrained after Satan is confined to the abyss. After Satan’s last rebellion, all those who are evil (both man and angel) will come to the Great White Throne for judgment, and then ALL evil will be vanquished forever from eternity future (Rev. 20:10-14). Thus, evil is not a requirement for good to exist.

God spoke the universe into existence ‘ex nihilo’ (out of nothing) and thus is the source for all intelligent actions and events that transpire therein. God does not require evil or darkness to exist in order for Him to…they are simply byproducts of created beings exercising their free will. God knew these things would happen beforehand (being omniscient), therefore, His planned interactions and counteractions were actually predetermined long before anything ever existed.

In other words, God the Father knew in eternity past, that Lucifer would rebel, and that he would tempt Eve and Adam, and in their fall, salvation would be a necessary requirement. Thus, He determined amongst His triune-self (the Godhead) that they would execute this salvation through both the Son (becoming a man) and the Spirit, drawing all men to the Son. Furthermore, the Son would satisfy the necessary justification from the Father so that all men could benefit, should they choose the free gift of salvation. The Holy Spirit would then seal those born-again persons into a permanent state (sanctification) until the redemption (glorification) occurred to retrieve those who belong to Him.

As the late Dr. Chuck Missler used to say, prophecy is just history written in advance.

God created the universe and used physical laws and systems to govern its perpetual existence. When sin was introduced into the picture (Lucifer’s rebellion), it set in motion a form of ‘cosmic entropy’ (if I can put it that way), and thus since the beginning, things have been winding down.

This entropic winding down explains the great rise in evil in our day. It also explains the connections between the seemingly unconnected events that consistently point to the end of our dispensation like road signs declaring an unwanted destination. When we warn our lost friends about this, we are drawing on a whole host of signs that are given to us in Scripture. Yet, to the unlearned and unbelieving, these are simply random and unconnected events. They cannot see the prophetic mosaic coming into view. For example, when we show the…

or that Israel is getting to the point where they want to rebuild their third temple

…they can’t see this is exactly what was foretold in Revelation nearly 2,000 years ago. For the unbeliever, these are all unconnected events. They cannot connect the dots like we do because they are either ignorant (don’t or can’t understand), or they are spiritually unstable (unwilling to accept it or want to pervert it). (2 Peter 3:16) Either way, this isn’t a rejection of your and my efforts; they are refusing to accept the Bible as the source of truth.

But so great is the Luciferian Zeitgeist today, that there are even unbelievers who are watching a global government forming and are speaking out against it (e.g., Glenn Beck, Alex Jones, Ben Shapiro, etc.). Unfortunately, they have a skewed misunderstanding of man’s future. They believe this trend towards globalism is purely ideological, and thus, is reversible, or preventable, if only we get the right politicians in place, or create the right political movements. They either don’t understand or severely underestimate the satanic spiritual undercurrents dragging mankind into this dark dystopian and apocalyptic future.

We even have ignorant and/or unstable Christians (with regards to Bible prophecy) who are muddying the waters even further by spouting all sorts of nonsense about what will happen. We’ve got the whole spectrum of fruitcakes out there. On one end, we have the folks who read prophecy into everything (YouTube videos, astrological signs, personal dreams and visions, numerology, gematria, planetary alignments, etc.) and come out naming dates for the Rapture. On the other end, we have those who are claiming we are already in the Tribulation (in the first four Seal Judgments) and stating the church will have to go through part or all of the Tribulation.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m sensitive to the still small voice we can hear, and the impression God puts on us both individually and collectively as believers. These can be valid experiences so long as they don’t contradict what Scripture has already said. But when you come out and say, God told me…..or God spoke to me…..or God showed me…..then what you are saying is your dream, vision, encounter, or whatever, is equal with Scripture. Because if you say “God told me X, Y, and Z, and that is not in Scripture, then what you are saying is, “Thus sayeth the Lord.” You are saying God is adding new information to the canon of Scripture that He closed in Revelation and are treading on very dangerous ground.

I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll. Revelation 22:18-19

On the other end of the spectrum, we have those Christians with martyr complexes who ignore what the Bible says and insist we must go into the Tribulation and fight our way through it. They don’t realize how hopeless a proposition that really is, because with the exception of the 144,000 and the Two Witnesses, God gives the Antichrist total control over the earth.

It (the beast) was given power to wage war against God’s holy people and to conquer them. And it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation. Rev. 13:7 (my edits)

Therefore, if what we believe is true (it is), then their whole survival paradigm begins to fall apart and they are either not ready to hear it, or simply refuse to believe it. But we can know with 100% confidence that the Pre-Tribulation Rapture view is true because even though we see events in the world trending toward prophetic fulfillment and not away from it, yet, things are still being restrained, which means it cannot happen until the Church is removed. Just like the Bible says.

Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 2 Thess. 2:5-8

When sharing Bible prophecy with our friends and family, we cannot convince them that we are in the last days. Even if you show them signs and point them toward the Bible, most will not believe. Satan has done a masterful job of blinding this generation to the nearness of Christ’s return, so much so, that it will largely catch the world off guard.

However, most people believe in coincidence, luck, or fate. These are common in most cultures.

I have begun simply pointing out the increasing number of ‘meaningful coincidences’ that are seemingly filling up our news feeds now on a daily basis. I point out that in the past, these “what is this world coming to?” events used to just happen on a yearly basis. But as time wore on, it began to fill our newsfeeds on a monthly basis. Then it was weekly. Now it’s daily. Can it really be a coincidence that all of these things are trending toward fulfilling Bible prophecy?

Is it just a coincidence that at the same time that Israel was reborn as a nation, Europe also began to coalesce back into a single empire (the EU)? (Daniel 9:26-27, Rev. 13:1)

Is it just a coincidence that at the same time the global economy is tanking, technology is transitioning our old fiat currency into a new digital one? (Rev. 13:16-18)

Is it a coincidence that medicine is also moving away from traditional treatments, into increasingly placing technology into the human body or rewriting our DNA? (Rev. 13:16-18)

Is it any coincidence that at the time that the United States is declining, Europe is ascending? (Rev. 17:12-18)

Is it any coincidence that as we draw nearer to the end, the once-solid evangelical Church is rapidly transforming into the ecumenically lukewarm (and nauseous) Laodicea? (Rev. 3:14-22)

Is it any coincidence that as Western Civilization is becoming more decadent, it is losing its ability to reason? (Gender identity, unborn babies, grooming, etc.) (Luke 21:25-26, Romans 1:18-32, 2 Tim. 3)

Is it any coincidence that as America is abandoning God and trying to divide the land of Israel, He is removing those protections He's put in place to bless her?

My three previous articles were all designed to highlight some significant shifts in the world today. The main point of Running out of Normal is the desensitization that is occurring in our generation, and how, pretty soon, we are not going to be shocked by much of anything any longer thus nullifying Luke 17:26-36.

The main point of Prophetic Redlines is, is that our generation has so many ‘point of no return’ redlines we are crossing, that we are quickly being thrust into dangerous territory. Furthermore, these red lines are not being foisted upon everyone by Hollywood or social media, but by government mandates.

The main point of Threadbare is that our way of life is no longer sustainable. We have to change and that is why globalists are pushing so hard for this final, global government (the beast) in the here and now. We are absolutely living on borrowed time. While I cannot and will not state a day or hour in which our Lord will return, given all that was put forth, not just by me, but by many watchers, is that we are running out of time to rescue those who can be saved. We share the Good News with a lost and dying world increasingly as Jude puts it.

Be merciful to those who doubt; save others by snatching them from the fire; to others show mercy, mixed with fear—hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh. Jude 1:23-24

If that alone will not convince them (but knowing God’s word will not return void), show them how the events of this world are not happening by accident, but are in fact, by design, and they point towards the end of days.

If they are still not convinced, point out all the seemingly “coincidences” that are trending toward biblical fulfillment, and not away from it.

For most that are regular readers of mine, you’re reading this because you are a watcher, and you are cognizant of the times in which we live. I feel very much like I’m preaching to the choir because I know you take this seriously and I don’t want to come across like I’m berating you. I’m not.

I’m speaking to the semi-serious Christians who accidentally stumbled across this site and this article. I’m speaking to those who are playing Christian on Sunday but getting sucked back into the world the other six days of the week. I’m speaking to the ones who are too timid to share the Gospel for fear of what others might say.

As Ed Hindson once said, “Bible prophecy is not meant to scare us, but to prepare us.”

If you don’t take Bible Prophecy seriously, then you grossly underestimate just how terrible those last wretched years will be. In just the first four judgments alone, nearly 2,000,000,000 will die. Another third will be killed in the ensuing Trumpet Judgments. After that, nearly the whole population will die between the Bowl Judgments and Armageddon.

The real tragedy is not that it will happen, but that so many of those alive today, don’t have to go through it.

Instead of living under the most tyrannical, authoritarian systems in man’s short history on earth, they could be in their glorified immortal bodies living in the most extravagant and mind-blowingly beautiful environment we can’t even conceive of

Instead of going through the horrors of the 21 divinely appointed judgments, they could be at the Wedding Supper of the Lamb, in Heaven

Instead of intense suffering on earth, and then even worse suffering in hell for all eternity, they could be redeemed now, simply by taking Jesus’ free gift of salvation

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. John 3:16-17

“What you are doing is cherry-picking verses and twisting the message to suit your preconceived notions.”

I have an orchard of ripe fruit. I cite large portions. Chapters. Whole books of the Bible. I point out running themes. Cherry-picking would be using “proof texts” where the argument being made has little to do with the passage itself.

But the pre-tribulationist position is argued from cherry picked passages. I know. I grew up with it. I come from the Brethren Assemblies which were founded by J.N. Darby—the one who systematized the pre-trib position. He is somewhat responsible for popularizing it, but Scofield is the main person who exposed the broader Evangelical Christian community to the idea. The great irony is that the idea of strictly adhering to the Bible rather than being followers of people is a foundational precept. Most claim to do this, but few are really willing to examine any of their closely-held beliefs in the light of scripture.

The general framework most of us already agree on: Christ’s future bodily return and literal earthly kingdom. Daniel’s 70th week has not happened yet and will at the time when God brings Israel to national repentance and salvation. Antichrist will rise to power in the first half, but will break his covenant/treaty with Israel in the exact middle. There is a specific event commonly called the rapture in which believers who have not died will be transformed and caught up in the air to meet Christ. This is accompanied by the bodies of dead believers being resurrected. The only major issue in dispute among the majority is when the rapture will occur in relation to the 70th week. Most arguments are made using anecdotal evidence and by examining small pieces of the puzzle. But it is difficult to describe the entire scene of a puzzle based on a few pieces when the puzzle is not yet fully assembled.

There are some things that are easy to understand in the Bible. There are some things even children or those with very little intelligence or education can understand. The matters we are discussing are difficult ones, even for very educated scholars. And truthfully my knowledge on Bible prophecy is like a grain of sand on the seashore. But what I do know, I hold onto like a jewel.

“You have a martyr complex.”

This is the second time you’ve made that unfounded claim. Do you even know what the term means?

According to Wikipedia: “In psychology a person who has a martyr complex, sometimes associated with the term ‘victim complex’, desires the feeling of being a martyr for their own sake and seeks out suffering or persecution because it either feeds a physical need or a desire to avoid responsibility.”

Of the posts on this thread, yours sound more like someone playing the victim. Challenging your sacred cows might seem like persecution, but it isn’t. And this is especially true when the whole point is to help prepare people for what is actually going to happen rather than setting their expectations for what they prefer will happen.

Somebody is going to be very disappointed. And I can assure you it isn’t going to be me. That’s because even if I’m wrong I’m better off. That is, Christ coming sooner than expected is not a bad thing to anyone who is ready and looking for His return. Unfortunately, those who fail to distinguish (as the Bible clearly does) between God’s wrath and the judgments of the great tribulation are likely to become very disillusioned if they find themselves facing the Antichrist’s severe persecution, and they’ve convinced themselves or allowed themselves to be convinced by others that this could never happen.

For those of us who believe we must go through the Great Tribulation before Christ’s return, these events, though unpleasant, are a signal that Christ’s return is imminent. It will give us the comfort and joy to endure to the end. The comfort also includes the promise that we are not appointed for wrath. Tribulation, yes. Wrath (from God), no.

Acts 14:22 NKJV
[Paul and Barnabas were] strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying, “We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God.”

Romans 8:35-37 NKJV
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written:
“For Your sake we are killed all day long;
We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.”
Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us.

Luke 21:28 NKJV
Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.

“Who is the following identifying?“

Here are some of the passages relevant to the 24 elders:

Revelation 1:5-6 NKJV
And from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

Revelation 3:21 NKJV
To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

Revelation 4:4 NKJV
Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and on the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white robes; and they had crowns of gold on their heads.

Revelation 5:4-5 & 8-11 NKJV
So I wept much, because no one was found worthy to open and read the scroll, or to look at it. But one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll and to loose its seven seals.”…
Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. And they sang a new song, saying:
“You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
And have made us kings and priests to our God;
And we shall reign on the earth.”
Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands.

Revelation 5:13 NKJV
Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”

Revelation 7:9-14 NKJV
After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God. saying:
“Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom,
Thanksgiving and honor and power and might,
Be to our God forever and ever.
Amen.”
Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”
And I said to him, “Sir, you know.”
So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.“

Revelation 11:15-18 NKJV
Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!” And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God, saying:
“We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty,
The One who is and who was and who is to come,
Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.
The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,
And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,
And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”

Revelation 14:3 NKJV
They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders; and no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth.

Revelation 19:1-4 NKJV
After these things I heard a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying, “Alleluia! Salvation and glory and honor and power belong to the Lord our God! For true and righteous are His judgments, because He has judged the great harlot who corrupted the earth with her fornication; and He has avenged on her the blood of His servants shed by her.” Again they said, “Alleluia! Her smoke rises up forever and ever!” And the twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God who sat on the throne, saying, “Amen! Alleluia!”

Revelation 20:4 NKJV
And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

The 24 elders are humans. They are individuals. They are among the redeemed. They speak on behalf of the “saints”. They have attributes of “kings and priests” such as crowns, thrones, and priestly activities in which they are engaged. They count themselves among those who have been redeemed from every nation.

This not be a depiction of ALL of the body of Christ, i.e. the Church, for a few reasons. The Church would be comprised of an uncountable multitude of which they describe themselves to be part. Yet, such an uncountable multitude is not found to be present when these elders are introduced. Indeed, even in the same passage, there are multitudes worshipping God who are located in heaven, on earth, under the earth, and in the sea. There are descriptions of many millions of angels before the throne. There are descriptions of great multitudes of saints in chapters 7 and 19. (See above.) Yet, when the 24 elders are introduced, the multitudes of saints are noticeably absent. It’s certainly not due to lack of room, as the other groups are incredibly large. Further, the elders are again present when these multitudes of saints are later depicted as appearing in the throne room of Heaven.

The 24 elders are saints who serve as some type of headship over many other saints (perhaps all?). But whether these saints are located in Heaven, on earth, or in both places does not seem to be indicated anywhere in these passages.

Trying to ascertain the timing of the rapture using anecdotes or breadcrumbs and clues is not going to make the case to anyone but those who are already sold on the idea before presenting such “evidence”. Revelation does not even present a literal depiction of the rapture. From this book it might be possible to piece together a timeline such as a seven-year period using passages that describe 42 months, etc. However, it is not Revelation but Daniel that gives us the specific details we need. Revelation and the Olivet Discourse add details.

Likewise, Revelation provides further details, but it is from other major prophetic passages that we can piece together a timeline of relevant events. These many other passages clearly indicate that the Day of the Lord is distinct from the Great Tribulation.

Building an elaborate scheme of end-times events, which have real and practical implications for those who will go through them, on nothing more than hints and speculative assumptions seems risky and contrary to how God clearly operates.

When there was a famine coming, and Agabus foretold it, people got ready. See Acts 11:28.

When Christ warned His followers to flee Jerusalem when certain signs came, they did it. And it spared their lives. See Matthew 24.

But you are suggesting that the entire living body of Christ on earth rest in the idea of being rescued by a pre-trib rapture from things like war, famine, disease, natural disaster, and persecution based on the private interpretation of the 24 elders giving us supposed proof that the Church has been raptured to Heaven.

Further, ALL of these things have been experienced by the Church historically. Supposing that all of them happen again BEFORE the rapture even IF the pre-trib view is correct, are you going to suggest there is no need for Christians to prepare for this eventuality?

“You assert they would be of an uncountable number, mistaking them for the number coming out of the great tribulation. They are not from that group since they already have their crowns which they cast before the Lamb.”

What I’m asserting is that IF the rapture had already occurred at the time John foresaw the 24 elders in Revelation 4-5, it could have been shown by describing an uncountable multitude. God chose to exclude such a description in those chapters. But the descriptions of 3 multitudes (1 of them angels) before the throne prove that such a description could have been made in chapters 4 and 5 IF it were the case. But it appears that the raptured church is NOT in Heaven at this time. Granted the rapture is NOT depicted in Revelation, at least in terms of a large group being caught up to Heaven.

What you need to keep in mind is that I’m not making a case for a pre-wrath rapture based on my observations about small details in Revelation. I’m observing that the plain reading of these details is not inconsistent with a pre-wrath rapture.

“The four and twenty are IN HEAVEN witnessing the taking and opening of the Seven Sealed Scroll. I take their presence to represent the Body of Christ Believers Raptured before the Tribulation.”

Yes, I see that you do. I don’t have a problem with such speculation as long as it is regarded as speculation. To appeal to it as proof of a pre-trib rapture is dubious at best. In the very same passage we have a description of EVERY creature in Heaven, on earth, under the earth, and in the sea praising God and Christ. This single event alone raises questions about the linear nature of the timeline of events. And that’s just one item to consider.

The pre-trib view is fixated on the 7-year timeline of Daniel’s 70th week. That’s not necessarily bad because it is a rock-solid framework to build upon. However, the pre-trib timing of the rapture hinges entirely upon whatever dispensational views a Bible student brings to the text along with his or her understanding of the relationship between Israel and the Church.

If we were to set aside the 7-year timeline to consider simply the future events, I think very few Bible students would object to the possibility of the Church on earth going through a period of fighting false prophets and teachers, war, famine, diseases, natural disasters, and persecutions. It is indisputable that God has allowed the Church, the bride of Christ, to experience all of these things.

Western Christianity has been lulled to sleep by extended periods of peace and safety. Word of faith and prosperity Gospel teaching is wildly popular. And even mainstream evangelicals seem to embrace the idea that it is harmful to warn Christians that end-times prophecy includes hardships for the Church.

I’m advocating that believers MUST endure hardships and that these are not contradictory to Christ’s love for the Church. Rather, we are called to be like Him, including His suffeiring. These hardships being a part of end-times prophecy is consistent with His return NOT being signless. We are able to anticipate His return based on the signs and “see the day approaching” as Hebrews says.

You are very wordy, but not convincing.

You asserted "how God clearly operates." Yet you really do not know how The Creator operates. What was it Paul told them 'behold I show you a mystery"? Paul also wrote, almost as an aside, 1 Thess 1:10. And he also assured the Believers that we are not appointed to wrath but to obtain salvation.

Titus tells us this rescue is our blessed hope, but folks like you who presume you know better don't want that, you are eager for the Body of Christ Believers to go through great tribulation, as if earning some sort of merit badge.

You clearly do not understand what the Great Departure is for. Here's a couple of hints:

the Rescue departure ends the Age of Grace work of the Hoy Spirit and ushers in a different means of His work with those who will believe as the truibulum crush the unbelief out of them;
the departure removes the Ekklesia from the earth so that the Jewish evangelists (144000) and the messenger angels can spread the gospel of the coming Kingdom which is precisely predictable from God's prophecies to Ez, Daniel, Isaiah, and John's iteration of Jesus's teaching Matthew 24 and 25.

The day of the physical touchdown of Jesus is knowable from the start of the tribulation/Jacob's troubles. The Great Departure is not able to be dated, by design, a concept known since the teaching of the Apostles as imminence, the unpredictable day of return that even Jesus admitted He could not know, only the Father. Believers are told to be anticipating His coming for them at any moment, told to be vigilant so we are not caught unprepared for the departure.

This is not the message to those who will be left behind, who will come to believe in Him because of the departure they witness and the tribulation crushing unbelief out of them so they call upon the name of the Lord Christ for salvation (tribulum of the wheat harvesting the grain from the stubborn stalks).

In the Dead Sea Scrolls the Esene Zadok Priests related that the great and sudden snatching away of the Graced Ones was to be used by God to give the unbelievers a last chance to believe and go to Heaven, not as the Bride but as the witnesses for the wedding.

“It’s almost impossible for me to take anybody seriously who uses Darby’s name as the source of The Pretribulation Rapture... Especially since Jesus, Paul and John all refer to it. Not to mention a plethora of early Church writers as well.”

Would you say the same thing of ALL of the reformers?

The terms “pre-trib” and “rapture” aren’t in the Bible. They are concepts that Bible scholars use to describe their understanding of the Bible.

Even if the pre-trib rapture view was correct, then it was entirely lost to the Church for many years, and Darby would be the one who re-discovered it.

Unfortunately, he got it wrong and misled a lot of people. And this error is still doing a lot of harm.

“It’s the very reason why Revelation is ridiculed as ‘hard to comprehend’ and ‘divisive’ by most heretical preachers.”

My assertion is based on what the Bible says about these subjects:

2 Peter 3:12-16 NKJV
Looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

Peter says “these things”, referring to eschatology, are “hard to understand”. So, who is it between us who is arguing with the Bible?

Here is a well-sourced article that supports Darby’s foundational role in the modern dispensational and pre-tribulational views in the Western church:

https://lighthousebc.com/beacon/2016/06/07/who-was-john-nelson-darby-part-1/

Darby was the epitome of “divisive” as he was at the top of the “exclusive brethren” who not only excluded believers from other groups but even within the brethren movement if they disagreed with his views.

“If you did an honest study of the book, with an open heart, mind, and spirit, you would see things that make it impossible for God to not rapture His Bride from this earth.
*His Character
*His promises
*His use of Language describing His Children
*His use of Language describing the heathen
*John’s cluelessness regarding who those martyred souls were
*The lack of ‘grace thru faith’ for ‘Trib Saints’
*The different destiny’s of Israel, The Church, and Trib Saints”

I’ll address these in order.

God’s character:

John 15:20-21 NKJV
Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you. If they kept My word, they will keep yours also. But all these things they will do to you for My name’s sake, because they do not know Him who sent Me.”

Emulating God’s character means walking in Christ’s steps. And this includes His suffering.

His promises: I’ve already listed the promises that include suffering, persecution, affliction, and tribulation. The promises of being kept from these things do not preclude going through them. However, the promise of being saved from God’s wrath means believers will not go through that.

1 Thessalonians 3:1-4 NKJV
Therefore, when we could no longer endure it, we thought it good to be left in Athens alone, and sent Timothy, our brother and minister of God, and our fellow laborer in the gospel of Christ, to establish you and encourage you concerning your faith, that no one should be shaken by these afflictions; for you yourselves know that we are appointed to this. For, in fact, we told you before when we were with you that we would suffer tribulation, just as it happened, and you know.

2 Timothy 3:12 NKJV
Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution.

John 16:33 NKJV
These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.

1 Thessalonians 1:10 NKJV
And to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

John was not clueless about the martyred saints. That is, you are confusing the martyrs of the 5th seal in Revelation 6 with the multitude that comes out of the Great Tribulation in chapter 7. How would John know or recognize anyone in that crowd if it was a future vision of saints who will go through the Great Tribulation that had not happened yet? The passage does not say they were martyred, died of natural causes, or were killed by the disasters of the first 6 seals. In fact, it does not say they died at all. It is possible that this select group are those who were alive at the rapture which happens at the end of the Great Tribulation just prior to God’s judgment of the whole earth by fire at the hands of holy angels (which is exactly what all of the passages indicate).

If you think that any Old Testament saints (Israelites or otherwise), or any “tribulation saints” are saved apart from “by grace through faith”, you need to return your Christian Bible student diploma and return to kindergarten, and start over. You need to go back to milk before trying to digest the meat of difficult matters like eschatology.

The distinction between redeemed Israel, the Church, and “tribulation saints’ as they’re often called, are merely reflections of the theology of the person studying these passages. When you bring these presuppositions to the text, you will ALWAYS find ways to support your presuppositions. That’s because you are not looking at the text and asking IF your presuppositions are correct. They are assumed to be true. But what if they aren’t? Perhaps you should heed your own advice about studying scripture with an “open heart, mind, and spirit” rather than making presumptions against my heart for simply disagreeing with your opinion which you are elevating to be the same as disagreeing with God. That’s pretty dangerous territory.

I’ll address two points:

YOUR QUOTE:

“Emulating God’s character means walking in Christ’s steps. And this includes His suffering.”

How do you know I haven’t suffered?
Do you know my pain?
Do you know my walk?

Persecution, Tribulation, and Suffering hit all Christians. You seem to want to imply it means a physical suffering of some sort. Which is why I refer to your types as having the Martyr Complex.

Very weak!

YOUR QUOTE:

“John was not clueless about the martyred saints. That is, you are confusing the martyrs of the 5th seal in Revelation 6 with the multitude that comes out of the Great Tribulation in chapter 7.”

I’m not confusing anybody. I’m absolutely referring to those who John had no idea who were mentioned in Rev 7:9-17.
John did not know who they were. He knew who Israel was. He knew who the Church was (he was a member as all Apostles were), but this group - these martyrs he had no clue who they were.

Since you claim to know so much about this subject - tell us all here how can this group be a part of THE BRIDE OF CHRIST when it clearly states in Revelation 7:15 they will serve The Lord for eternity (day & night) in His Temple? (Rev 20:6) And His Temple will not be on Earth (Rev 21:22) Saints are not mentioned at all in Revelation 7.

The Church is states explicitly will live and reside in the New Jerusalem (Rev 21:16-17) and experience the uncompilable Riches of God (Ephesians 2:6-10; 1 Corinthians 2:9)

There are 3 destinies of “Saved” people:

1. Israel
2. The Church (Bride of Christ)
3. Tribulation Saints

Read the test and decide for yourself.
I’m done here - have a great weekend.

“How do you know I haven’t suffered?”

I don’t know. How would I? How is that relevant to whether the Bible says the last generation of living Church-age believers will be raptured after going through the Great Tribulation?

I don’t think your or my personal experience determines any Bible prophesy meaning or fulfillment.

“Do you know my pain? Do you know my walk?”

No. And you don’t know mine, yet you accused me 3 times of having a “martyr complex” without knowing anything about my experiences. And then you become all defensive when this is pointed out to you. Maybe it would benefit you to stick with what you know of your own experience, suffering or otherwise, rather than presuming what you know nothing about (i.e. my experiences).

“Persecution, Tribulation, and Suffering hit all Christians. You seem to want to imply it means a physical suffering of some sort. Which is why I refer to your types as having the Martyr Complex.”

The examples in scripture, including the prophetic ones certainly include physical suffering.

Revelation 2:10 NKJV
Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

I don’t know about you, but this sounds like physical suffering. I’m not sure if your category is precise or relevant though. Is it physical suffering if someone steals your possessions? If you lose your job? If you are imprisoned? If you are publicly shamed, defamed, and ridiculed? If your friends and family abandon you? Do you think the Great Tribulation will only involve “physical suffering”?

“I’m absolutely referring to those who John had no idea who were mentioned in Rev 7:9-17. John did not know who they were. He knew who Israel was. He knew who the Church was (he was a member as all Apostles were), but this group - these martyrs he had no clue who they were.”

First of all, how would John recognize every individual in an uncountable multitude?

Second, how would John recognize any individual who is part of a future generation that had not been born and he had never met?

Third, nothing in Revelation 7 indicates anyone in this great multitude had been martyred.

Fourth, nothing in Revelation 7 indicates anyone in this great multitude had even physically died.

What we know is the same thing John knew because we are told with him who they are. They are those who are redeemed (i.e. wearing “garments made white in the blood of the Lamb”) and came out of the Great Tribulation. Exactly by what means they came out is not specified.

The elder that told John who they were never said they were martyrs. But if you have evidence they are martyrs, it would certainly add value to your point. I’m just not aware of it.

“Since you claim to know so much about this subject...”

Kindly point to where I claimed that.

“how can this group be a part of THE BRIDE OF CHRIST when it clearly states in Revelation 7:15 they will serve The Lord for eternity (day & night) in His Temple? (Rev 20:6) And His Temple will not be on Earth (Rev 21:22) Saints are not mentioned at all in Revelation 7.”

The bride of Christ is a metaphor, a symbol. It is an image to help convey to our limited minds a concept of the relationship between the Church and Christ. It is like the relationship between a bride and a groom, but it must be so much more than that considering that the Heavenly Groom is the LORD, and since His bride is comprised of billions of people which collectively form one body or entity. The concept is deep and is called a “mystery” for a reason. I will not pretend to understand the depths of this mystery. I imagine that it is not humanly possible to do so, but of that I am not certain. I am certain that I do not know the depths. So, I am unsure where you got the idea that I claimed some type of expertise on this matter.

But I will say that it is a worthy subject to study and explore and has a great deal of significance to the issue of the timing of the rapture.

Now on the specific questions, I don’t see your arguments being supported by the passages you cited. I am a little unclear on whether you consider the great multitude in Revelation 7 to be comprised of “saints.” You pointed out that the term is not used in the chapter, but then you listed 3 destiny categories which seem to imply you believe this group is made up of “tribulation saints.”

Regardless, you are clearly arguing the group cannot be part of the Church based on details which seem sketchy to me. Your first claim is that they serve God in His temple for eternity but argue there is no temple where the Church/bride resides. It does not say there is no temple. Rather, it says John did not see a temple. Big difference. Further, there is a temple:

Revelation 21:22 NKJV
But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.

If the Lamb is the temple, and the Revelation 7 multitude serves in the temple, how can you argue they are not on earth where Christ and the bride are?

These saints (in chapter 7) have priestly duties just like Church-age believers. If they serve in the temple, and the Lamb is the temple, wouldn’t that mean that they go with the Lamb when He sets up His earthly kingdom?

If I understand you correctly, you seem to be connecting the martyrs of the 5th seal to the great multitude in chapter 7, and then to the beheaded saints resurrected in chapter 20. Here is that last passage:

Revelation 20:4-6 NKJV
And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

This passage presents some difficulties regardless of the timing of the rapture. It describes a very narrow and specific group being raised: those beheaded during the Antichrist’s rule/persecution. This ties in with the mark of the beast which seems at first to confer special privileges, then it seems to become coerced economically, and finally it becomes a capital crime to refuse it. And those who refuse it at this point are beheaded.

Revelation 13:16-18 NKJV
He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man: His number is 666.

Revelation 14:9-11 NKJV
Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

If the “first resurrection” ONLY includes those beheaded being raised, what happens to all of the others who die during this presumably seven-year long period? Are we to conclude that no one who is not beheaded in this timeframe will be among the resurrected just? No one who dies of famine? No one who dies of disease? No one who dies of war? No one who dies of accidents? No one who dies of old age? No one who is martyred in some other way than beheading?

Whether someone is pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib, or pre-wrath, I think we all must agree that there are others raised to eternal life prior to this special resurrection. But think of the implications for your position. If the Church is raised at the onset of Daniel’s 70th week, when are all of the “tribulation saints” raised who were not beheaded? (But as I said, this conundrum is a challenge no matter which point of view you hold, as far as I can tell.)

“There are 3 destinies of ‘Saved’ people:
1. Israel
2. The Church (Bride of Christ)
3. Tribulation Saints”

Really? Since “Israel” is Jacob and his descendants, what category is Abraham in? Especially since he is the “father of many nations”. How about Enoch and Noah? How about Job?

How about the righteous among the nations during the Old Testament? What about saints who died after John the Baptist but before Pentecost? How about the “nations that are saved” in Revelation 21:24?

None of these issues address the distinction made in scripture between the Day of the Lord and the Great Tribulation.

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