“It’s almost impossible for me to take anybody seriously who uses Darby’s name as the source of The Pretribulation Rapture... Especially since Jesus, Paul and John all refer to it. Not to mention a plethora of early Church writers as well.”
Would you say the same thing of ALL of the reformers?
The terms “pre-trib” and “rapture” aren’t in the Bible. They are concepts that Bible scholars use to describe their understanding of the Bible.
Even if the pre-trib rapture view was correct, then it was entirely lost to the Church for many years, and Darby would be the one who re-discovered it.
Unfortunately, he got it wrong and misled a lot of people. And this error is still doing a lot of harm.
“It’s the very reason why Revelation is ridiculed as ‘hard to comprehend’ and ‘divisive’ by most heretical preachers.”
My assertion is based on what the Bible says about these subjects:
2 Peter 3:12-16 NKJV
Looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
Peter says “these things”, referring to eschatology, are “hard to understand”. So, who is it between us who is arguing with the Bible?
Here is a well-sourced article that supports Darby’s foundational role in the modern dispensational and pre-tribulational views in the Western church:
https://lighthousebc.com/beacon/2016/06/07/who-was-john-nelson-darby-part-1/
Darby was the epitome of “divisive” as he was at the top of the “exclusive brethren” who not only excluded believers from other groups but even within the brethren movement if they disagreed with his views.
“If you did an honest study of the book, with an open heart, mind, and spirit, you would see things that make it impossible for God to not rapture His Bride from this earth.
*His Character
*His promises
*His use of Language describing His Children
*His use of Language describing the heathen
*John’s cluelessness regarding who those martyred souls were
*The lack of ‘grace thru faith’ for ‘Trib Saints’
*The different destiny’s of Israel, The Church, and Trib Saints”
I’ll address these in order.
God’s character:
John 15:20-21 NKJV
Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you. If they kept My word, they will keep yours also. But all these things they will do to you for My name’s sake, because they do not know Him who sent Me.”
Emulating God’s character means walking in Christ’s steps. And this includes His suffering.
His promises: I’ve already listed the promises that include suffering, persecution, affliction, and tribulation. The promises of being kept from these things do not preclude going through them. However, the promise of being saved from God’s wrath means believers will not go through that.
1 Thessalonians 3:1-4 NKJV
Therefore, when we could no longer endure it, we thought it good to be left in Athens alone, and sent Timothy, our brother and minister of God, and our fellow laborer in the gospel of Christ, to establish you and encourage you concerning your faith, that no one should be shaken by these afflictions; for you yourselves know that we are appointed to this. For, in fact, we told you before when we were with you that we would suffer tribulation, just as it happened, and you know.
2 Timothy 3:12 NKJV
Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution.
John 16:33 NKJV
These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.
Acts 14:22 NKJV
[Paul and Barnabas were] strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying, “We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God.”
Romans 8:35-37 NKJV
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written:
“For Your sake we are killed all day long;
We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.”
Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us.
1 Thessalonians 1:10 NKJV
And to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.
John was not clueless about the martyred saints. That is, you are confusing the martyrs of the 5th seal in Revelation 6 with the multitude that comes out of the Great Tribulation in chapter 7. How would John know or recognize anyone in that crowd if it was a future vision of saints who will go through the Great Tribulation that had not happened yet? The passage does not say they were martyred, died of natural causes, or were killed by the disasters of the first 6 seals. In fact, it does not say they died at all. It is possible that this select group are those who were alive at the rapture which happens at the end of the Great Tribulation just prior to God’s judgment of the whole earth by fire at the hands of holy angels (which is exactly what all of the passages indicate).
If you think that any Old Testament saints (Israelites or otherwise), or any “tribulation saints” are saved apart from “by grace through faith”, you need to return your Christian Bible student diploma and return to kindergarten, and start over. You need to go back to milk before trying to digest the meat of difficult matters like eschatology.
The distinction between redeemed Israel, the Church, and “tribulation saints’ as they’re often called, are merely reflections of the theology of the person studying these passages. When you bring these presuppositions to the text, you will ALWAYS find ways to support your presuppositions. That’s because you are not looking at the text and asking IF your presuppositions are correct. They are assumed to be true. But what if they aren’t? Perhaps you should heed your own advice about studying scripture with an “open heart, mind, and spirit” rather than making presumptions against my heart for simply disagreeing with your opinion which you are elevating to be the same as disagreeing with God. That’s pretty dangerous territory.
Better scholars than you and me are sure in their designations, based upon the wording of The Revelation. You, OTOH are spouting your opinion of the passages, twisted in the mind of your soul to support Marv's erroneous assertion hinged solely upon the word wrath as found in chapter six of the Revelation. It is YOU who are treading very dangerous territory denying The Word of God as written in order to support a false assertion.
I’ll address two points:
YOUR QUOTE:
“Emulating God’s character means walking in Christ’s steps. And this includes His suffering.”
How do you know I haven’t suffered?
Do you know my pain?
Do you know my walk?
Persecution, Tribulation, and Suffering hit all Christians. You seem to want to imply it means a physical suffering of some sort. Which is why I refer to your types as having the Martyr Complex.
Very weak!
YOUR QUOTE:
“John was not clueless about the martyred saints. That is, you are confusing the martyrs of the 5th seal in Revelation 6 with the multitude that comes out of the Great Tribulation in chapter 7.”
I’m not confusing anybody. I’m absolutely referring to those who John had no idea who were mentioned in Rev 7:9-17.
John did not know who they were. He knew who Israel was. He knew who the Church was (he was a member as all Apostles were), but this group - these martyrs he had no clue who they were.
Since you claim to know so much about this subject - tell us all here how can this group be a part of THE BRIDE OF CHRIST when it clearly states in Revelation 7:15 they will serve The Lord for eternity (day & night) in His Temple? (Rev 20:6) And His Temple will not be on Earth (Rev 21:22) Saints are not mentioned at all in Revelation 7.
The Church is states explicitly will live and reside in the New Jerusalem (Rev 21:16-17) and experience the uncompilable Riches of God (Ephesians 2:6-10; 1 Corinthians 2:9)
There are 3 destinies of “Saved” people:
1. Israel
2. The Church (Bride of Christ)
3. Tribulation Saints
Read the test and decide for yourself.
I’m done here - have a great weekend.