Is Jesus God?

Depths of Pentecost ^ | February 16, 2019 | Philip Cottraux

[HarleyD]

The ONLY reason God wants our worship is because He deserves it. He is perfect beauty, joy, love and the rest. It should be natural for us to worship such characteristics and we should wish to imitate these values. The fact that we do not desire these traits illustrates our evil and fallen nature. And I'm not talking about the psedo-love junk that goes around these days.

Those who recognized Christ as the power of God fell down and worshipped Him. And the real fact is that God wants the very same thing for us-to have perfect beauty, joy, love, etc. That is, after all, why He came and paid the price for our sins. Those who reject Christ really reject the love and beauty that God has to offer.

Exo 20:21  The people stood far off, while Moses drew near to the thick darkness where God was. 

[ravenwolf]

God is spirit so If we see a man as God why would we not consider
his mother, was Mary the mother of Jesus or not?.

It does not bother me that much so you all just figure it out to
suit yourself.

[Iscool]

God is spirit so If we see a man as God why would we not consider his mother, was Mary the mother of Jesus or not?.

The God we will see does not have a mother...

[ravenwolf]

That’s true because Jesus himself
said no one has seen God at any time.

[Roman_War_Criminal]

Not trying to rehash everything that folks have responded to you - I semi perused what the responses were.

Read John 1 again. He and God are one in the same with the Holy Spirit. Humans make it hard to grasp that fact (that and the devil likes to confuse), but there it stands as a fact in the real paradigm that is this universe regardless.

Don’t take my word for it. There are plenty of verses to look & study through if you are really intentionally looking for the answer.

John 1 (entire chapter)
John 10:30
John 10:33 (they tried to stone Him for the claim)
John 8:58 (He’s been there from the beginning)
Acts 20:28 (God purchased the Church with His Own Blood)
John 20:28 (Thomas declares Jesus - My God)
2 Peter 1:1 (So did Peter)
Titus 2:13 (So did Titus)
Hebrews 1:8 (So did Paul)

[Roman_War_Criminal]

God has always been.
If God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit are the same, and they are, then God didn’t create himself, and then Jesus. They’ve always been there and always will be.

https://www.gotquestions.org/alpha-and-omega.html

[pcottraux]

Yes. Next question.

I'll try to think of another one for next week!

[pcottraux]

However I assume the Pentecostals do believe that Mary was the mother of God.

Pentecostals are typically Protestant Arminian Evangelicals, so not sure where you got that...although there are some charismatic groups within orthodox religions now.

[ravenwolf]

I think they believe Jesus was God in the flesh so I just assumed.

I believe that Jesus was both God and man, God in spirit and man in the flesh, however he is my lord an God.

[trebb]

Too funny - when Jesus walked the earth, He was 100% God (the Son) and 100% Man - He prayed to God the Father and encouraged other Men to do so.

[af_vet_1981]

One of the hardest things to teach is the concept of a Triune God. I don't even like to call it the Trinity because that denotes 3 Gods. It's one God in 3 forms.

It's one God in three Persons, blessed Trinity.

The early Christians were quick to spot new heresies. In the third century, Sabellius, a Libyan priest who was staying at Rome, invented a new one. He claimed there is only one person in the Godhead, so that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all one person with different "offices," rather than three persons who are one being in the Godhead, as the orthodox position holds.

Of course, people immediately recognized that Sabellius’s teaching contradicted the historic faith of the Church, and he was quickly excommunicated. His heresy became known as Sabellianism, Modalism, and Patripassianism. It was called Sabellianism after its founder, Modalism after the three modes or roles which it claimed the one person of the Trinity occupied, and Patripassianism after its implication that the person of the Father (Pater-) suffered (-passion) on the cross when Jesus died.

Because Modalism asserts that there is only one person in the Godhead, it makes nonsense of passages which show Jesus talking to his Father (e.g., John 17), or declaring he is going to be with the Father (John 14:12, 28, 16:10) One role of a person cannot go to be with another role of that person, or say that the two of them will send the Holy Spirit while they remain in heaven (John 14:16-17, 26, 15:26, 16:13–15; Acts 2:32–33). Modalism quickly died out; it was too contrary to the ancient Christian faith to survive for long. Unfortunately, it was reintroduced in the early twentieth century in the new Pentecostal movement. In its new form, Modalism is often referred to as Jesus Only theology since it claims that Jesus is the only person in the Godhead and that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are merely names, modes, or roles of Jesus. Today the United Pentecostal Church, as well as numerous smaller groups which call themselves "apostolic churches," teach the Jesus Only doctrine. Through the Word Faith movement, it has begun to infect traditionally Trinitarian Pentecostalism. Ironically, Trinity Broadcasting Network, operated by Word Faith preacher Paul Crouch, has given a television voice to many of these Jesus Only preachers (who are, of course, militantly anti-Trinitarian).

[chuckles]

I'm not Catholic. Nothing you said makes any sense to me. I read the Bible and interpret it as a spiritual being would, not a carnal man. John 1:1 tells me that in the beginning was the Word. The Word was with God, and the Word was God. Verse 14 says the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. The Word cannot be separate from God and still be God. This same "Word" became flesh and dwelt among us. These statements say that Jesus was God, God was Jesus, and the Word was God.

God revealed Himself to us in 3 forms, but He is still one God.

Trinity appears no where in Scripture. Trinity speaks of 3 separate Gods. Triune speaks of 3 forms of one God. If God was a Trinity, I suppose it makes it easier to worship Mary, John, Paul, Peter, and other saints. There is but one God and all our worship should be His.

How could Melchizedek, have no beginning and no end, be a High Priest forever, be the King of Salem, and have no genealogy? God appeared on earth in bodily form thousands of years before the birth of Christ. To a Jew, a King and a Priest cannot be the same person, unless He is in the order Melchizedek. Melchizedek was a theophany of Jesus or Jesus is not a High Priest forever. If He had no beginning or end, one could say Jesus was born of Mary and died on the cross so we should be looking to Melchizedek for salvation.

God is Spirit and can appear in whatever form He chooses. Was the burning bush God? No, God was in the form of a burning bush. Jesus is the fleshly form God took to be a final sacrifice for His people, but there is still but one God. If God is spirit, is the Holy Spirit God, or a part of God, or another God?

[af_vet_1981]

God revealed Himself to us in 3 forms, but He is still one God.

Not in 3 forms, in three persons: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit; the Blessed Trinity.

[pcottraux]

Jesus IS God. There is no other. But what about the Father? Jesus is the Father. But, but, the Holy Spirit? The Spirit is in Jesus and us. God is Spirit.

Which is why we need the fullness of God, not just part. The three are inseparable; you can't have the Father without the Son, and you can't have the Father and Son without the Holy Spirit. It's impossible to operate receiving only 1/3 or 2/3 of God. He will not be divided.

[pcottraux]

As Jesus was God in His incarnation as He was before He was clothed with a sentient physical body, so in a certain sense it might be argued that Mary can be called the mother of God in a functional sense relative to the incarnation. But which normally denotes ontological oneness, and Mary contributed absolutely nothing to the deity of Christ.

From my understanding, Maryology emerged in the centuries following the Early Church from the thorny issue of how Jesus could be sinless if He was born from the seed of Adam. Obviously since Joseph was His earthly father that's not a problem; so now we turn to His earthly mother, Mary. Ascending her into a divine realm as Mother of God seemed to fix the problem nicely. However, I would point out that you're still left with the issue that the Messiah had to be a descendant of David (and this couldn't be if He had no human parents).

[pcottraux]

The ONLY reason God wants our worship is because He deserves it.

And no matter how much we give Him, it would never be enough.

[pcottraux]

My opinion is God created Jesus so when the judgement comes Jesus can say yeah been there done that

Arianism.

There's an ancient legend that Saint Nicholas (yes, Santa Claus) punched Arius in the face at the Nicene Council for suggesting that.

[chuckles]

" He will not be divided."..........

Amen!

[daniel1212]

From my understanding, Maryology emerged in the centuries following the Early Church from the thorny issue of how Jesus could be sinless if He was born from the seed of Adam. Obviously since Joseph was His earthly father that's not a problem; so now we turn to His earthly mother, Mary. Ascending her into a divine realm as Mother of God seemed to fix the problem nicely. However, I would point out that you're still left with the issue that the Messiah had to be a descendant of David (and this couldn't be if He had no human parents).

Yet when many Catholics are faced with zero testimony for one of their beliefs, such as the Assumption or prayer to created beings in Heaven (which among other things means such have the power to hear prayer in Heaven, which only God is shown to have) then they God argue that nothing is impossible with God.

And thus since God is said to have preserved Mary from sin without her own parents being so, then they should not require her to be sinless in order for the sinless Christ to be born of her.

And if being sinless was required in order to bear the sinless Son of God, then why would she also not have to be perfect in character in order to bear one who was? But of course, for many uncensored Catholics, pretty much whatever Christ was and is, Mary also was and is , except as possessing Divinity by nature and perhaps headship over Christ.

Meanwhile, God "brought forth" His pure word thru imperfect but holy men, and as you point out, The sinless Savior had a sinful genealogy, coming out of Israel according to the flesh.

[pcottraux]

Yeah, it's one of those ideas that gets more ridiculous and inconsistent the more you advance its logical steps. If Jesus couldn't have been born from sinful parents, then neither could Mary, and if Mary couldn't have been born from sinful parents, etc.

Yet when many Catholics are faced with zero testimony for one of their beliefs, such as the Assumption or prayer to created beings in Heaven (which among other things means such have the power to hear prayer in Heaven, which only God is shown to have) then they God argue that nothing is impossible with God.

I don't mean to be too hard on Catholicism or any other orthodox religion because some of my good friends are Catholic. When I first ventured into social media, I learned very quickly that people of other faiths...orthodox Christians, Mormons, even Muslims...were generally polite and respectful. The first time I crossed the atheist internet troll community, I quickly learned who the real enemy was! I still have nightmares of that horror show!

That said, I still can't compromise with Catholic doctrine. It's puzzling to me how much they get right...I appreciate that Catholic church's contributions to philosophy and science and how well-versed in those subjects their members tend to be. But when it comes to their own history, such as how Maryology, transubstantiation, purgatory, etc. entered Catholic dogma, they get it really, embarrassingly wrong.

You want a good show, read some objective history about Martin Luther and the Reformation. Then listen to a Catholic apologist describe Martin Luther and the Reformation. It's actually really funny to compare.