On the recently-departed Cardinal M. we had been talking about, God rest his soul --- I had read one of his lines too quickly, and thought he'd said "the vestments we wear are pom-poms."
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Posted on 09/02/2012 1:22:52 PM PDT by caldera599
ROME (Reuters) - The former archbishop of Milan and papal candidate Cardinal Carlo Maria Martini said the Catholic Church was "200 years out of date" in his final interview before his death, published on Saturday.
Martini, once favored by Vatican progressives to succeed Pope John Paul II and a prominent voice in the church until his death at the age of 85 on Friday, gave a scathing portrayal of a pompous and bureaucratic church failing to move with the times.
"Our culture has aged, our churches are big and empty and the church bureaucracy rises up, our rituals and our cassocks are pompous," Martini said in the interview published in Italian daily Corriere della Sera.
"The Church must admit its mistakes and begin a radical change, starting from the pope and the bishops. The pedophilia scandals oblige us to take a journey of transformation," he said in the interview.
(Excerpt) Read more at msnbc.msn.com ...
Thanks...I’ll have to rethink my whole agnostic position...I’ll get back to you or I’ll have my people contact your people.
Obviously, the Church has had a few too many Martinis.
OK — great! LOL.
"Eek, and now English? Too much! There's probably no God!"
Of course...it was a joke. I don’t type well enough to justify my position to you....and I hope you feel the same way.
But those earlier languages were uniform (nearly) across the world at the time.
English is just a single example of the local vernacular in effect now. Very different from the clarity and immutability of the common languages and very subject to nuance and abuse.
The reason I left the New Mass was because of the handshake (hug; grope) of Peace. An even worse reason to leave, probably. But later I found there were some perfectly good reasons to take shelter in the Tridentine Mass.
I would elucidate but you already know them and I have to leave for Latin Mass in 15 minutes.
“It’s said that as one gets older, one gets wiser. That doesn’t apply to “infallible” institutions.”
~ ~ ~
“infallible”...
God wouldn’t leave us wondering or every one making up their
own version of His plan. There is an authority we can
turn to, the Holy Father.
Roman Catholicism is more than an “institution”, it is the one and only true faith. God gave her the gift to be correct on faith and morals. She is, history shows it.
Example, when Christians and non-Christians even Catholic
Bishops rejected Pope Paul VI because he would not change and ACCEPT contraception. He predicted the fruit of
contraception and it’s all come true. Contraception has almost destroyed the family, morals, brought about legalization of killing your own children, the murder of an innocent babe in it’s mother’s womb.
My heart says you will convert/revert when the Great Warning happens. Pray the entire world converts, non-Christians too.
Is that really your view of an agnostic's position?
Did you hear about the agnostic, dyslexic insomniac? The poor guy stayed awake all night wondering if there really IS a dog.
**church failing to move with the times.**
What is so important about the current/modern times?
The Catholic Church is formed on the one and only Song of God, Jesus Christ, our Lord.
I’m happy with that — and I bet a lot of Catholics are happy with that.
BTW, The Catholic Church moves even more slowly that governments. Glory Be!
But English, while a local vernacular, is local on 3 continents --- the British Isles, Canada, USA, Australia, NZ, and many ex-British-Empire places --- and the best and most widespread "second" language almost everywhere, on all 6 inhabited continents. That has its advantages, too.
I am by no means a philologist, but I don't think that any language that's in use is ever immutable. Just look at the difference between Classical Greek, Koine Greek, Modern Greek.
Used to be, Greek was the language of drama, poetry, philosophy, theology, mathematics and the sciences -- high civilization --- while Latin was the language of cops, soldiers, construction workers, publicans and petty bureaucrats. That's one connotation of Jerome's Latin version being "Vulgate" --- common --- and the Greeks thought it was a damned shame.
'Course, before them, the rabbis of Yavne thought Greek was a damned shame!
Oops
The Catholic Church is formed on the one and only Son of God, Jesus Christ, our Lord.
On the recently-departed Cardinal M. we had been talking about, God rest his soul --- I had read one of his lines too quickly, and thought he'd said "the vestments we wear are pom-poms."
.
I rejoined a traditional Latin Mass community in Jnauary, and haven’t looked back. The TLM is growing by leaps and bounds, and when we have a sung (Gregorian Chant Missa Solemnis) Mass, there are 10 altar boys an a church packed with families with young children.
My mother would not walk out of there. She would just camp out until next Sunday. After that, we’d have to drag her home.
Disclaimer: When God kicked Adam and Eve from the Garden, he could have been merciless. He wasn't he said they could take the Juniper tree with them. Hence, we can still have gin. Life rarely gets better than a classic dry martini made with but a dash of olive juice and three queen olives.
This guy would have made a horrible Pope. Let those who loved him revel in the memory. May he rest in peace.
lol...whatever you say, dude. I bow to your superior knowledge, obviously.
You would have been a "card carrying agnostic" during the early centuries of Christianity too then, since the Mass was in GREEK in those days, not Latin. Most of the Catholic liturgical words come from Greek, including the word "Catholic" itself (from the Greek "katholikos", meaning "universal") The Latin Mass didn't start until the fourth century A.D., and even then it was only commonplace in the western churches. Certainly Jesus and the apostles knew nothing of Latin.
Once again...it’s a joke...yet I can still recite the “sucipiot” after all these years.
There's been a wide variety of bible translations and liturgies developed over the 2000 year history of Christianity and they all have their strengths and weaknesses. Some of the holiest figures in church history had nothing to do with latin litugries, including the apostles themeselves. The sooner Christians stop this "my the way or the highway" attitude, the better.
As an agnostic I can hardly be referred to as a “traditionalist” what ever that means...although i can certainly guess. I’m an ex-catholic history buff who cannot afford the indulgence’s necessary for the Vatican to smooth my path to a guaranteed eternal salvation. I’ll have to try to get there on my own.
As an agnostic I can hardly be referred to as a “traditionalist” what ever that means...although i can certainly guess. I’m an ex-catholic history buff who cannot afford the indulgence’s necessary for the Vatican to smooth my path to a guaranteed eternal salvation. I’ll have to try to get there on my own...but that’s how I roll, so there’s hope.
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