Skip to comments.AND WITH YOUR SPIRIT, Et cum spiritu tuo, (New Missal liturgical translations)
Posted on 06/21/2009 3:05:45 PM PDT by Salvation
Notes on the New Translation of the Missale Romanum, editio typica tertia
(from the August 2005 Newsletter © 2008 USCCB)
While there are many and complex elements of the translation yet to be decided by the Bishops, the translation of several phrases in the Order of Mass have been previously decided by the instruction Liturgiam authenticam. Among these are certain expressions that belong to the heritage of the whole or of a great part of the ancient Church, as well as others that have become part of the general human patrimony Therefore, the response Et cum spiritu tuo is to be respected by a translation that is as literal as possible."1 Commentaries for a popular understanding of these two elements of the Liturgy are provided here and may be reproduced freely with the customary copyright acknowledgement by our readers.
AND WITH YOUR SPIRIT
Perhaps the most common dialogue in the Liturgy of the Roman Rite consists of the greeting :
et cum spiritu tuo
Since 1970, this has been translated as:
The Lord be with you.
And also with you.
As a part of the revised translation of the Roman Missal, now taking place, the translation of this dialogue has been revised, to read:
The Lord be with you.
And with your spirit.
The Lord be with you.
The Lord be with you.
Since it is clear that the change to and with your spirit is a significant and wide ranging change in a longstanding liturgical practice, the following questions are provided to clarify the reasons for the change and the meaning of the dialogue itself.
1. Why has the response et cum spiritu tuo been translated as and with your spirit?
The retranslation was necessary because it is a more correct rendering of et cum spiritu tuo. Recent scholarship has recognized the need for a more precise translation capable of expressing the full meaning of the Latin text.
2. What about the other major languages? Do they have to change their translations?
No. English is the only major language of the Roman Rite which did not translate the word spiritu. The Italian (E con il tuo spirito), French (Et avec votre esprit), Spanish (Y con tu espíritu) and German (Und mit deinem Geiste) renderings of 1970 all translated the Latin word spiritu precisely.
3. Has the Holy See ever addressed this question?
In 2001, the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments published an instruction entitled, Liturgiam authenticam, subtitled, On the Use of Vernacular Languages in the Publication of the Books of the Roman Liturgy. The instruction directs specifically that: Certain expressions that belong to the heritage of the whole or of a great part of the ancient Church, as well as others that have become part of the general human patrimony, are to be respected by a translation that is as literal as possible, as for example the words of the peoples response Et cum spiritu tuo, or the expression mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa in the Act of Penance of the Order of Mass.2
4. Where does this dialogue come from?
The response et cum spiritu tuo is found in the Liturgies of both East and West, from the earliest days of the Church. One of the first instances of its use is found in the Traditio Apostolica of Saint Hippolytus, composed in Greek around AD 215.
5. How is this dialogue used in the Liturgy?
The dialogue is only used between the priest and the people, or exceptionally, between the deacon and the people. The greeting is never used in the Roman Liturgy between a non-ordained person and the gathered assembly.
6. Why does the priest mean when he says The Lord be with you?
By greeting the people with the words The Lord be with you, the priest expresses his desire that the dynamic activity of Gods spirit be given to the people of God, enabling them to do the work of transforming the world that God has entrusted to them.
7. What do the people mean when they respond and with your spirit?
The expression et cum spiritu tuo is only addressed to an ordained minister. Some scholars have suggested that spiritu refers to the gift of the spirit he received at ordination. In their response, the people assure the priest of the same divine assistance of Gods spirit and, more specifically, help for the priest to use the charismatic gifts given to him in ordination and in so doing to fulfill his prophetic function in the Church.
8. What further reading could you suggest on this dialogue?
For those who wish to pursue this issue from a more scholarly perspective, they might consult:
People: And with your spirit. (Et cum spiritu tuo)
Any other thoughts out there?
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In the Source link and the name of the site, my fingers seem to be hitting an E rather than a U
Could you please change both to USCCB?
Just bring back the Latin and you won’t have to worry about the official translations.
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“Y con tu espiritu!”
“Just bring back the Latin and you wont have to worry about the official translations.”
Which means that once you get back to the Latin of the Late Middle Ages, you need to go to the Latin of the Early Middle Ages, and then the Latin of the Late Roman Period ~ or maybe the Middle Byzantine Period ~ or maybe even to Modern, Medieval, Byzantine, or possibly even Classical Greek (depending on phrase or clause at dispute, and when it originated, and which authorities of which rank and reputation ever commented on it).
In general it's usually more efficient to simply come up with a more modern statement than to try to figure out what a writer/source/authority meant more than a thousand years back.
There are people who despise modernism but that's a whole 'nuther question.
With several years of Latin under my belt and a thorough grounding in Spanish, French, German, Italian and several other languages, I couldn't quite figure out what the translating authority had done by simply leaving the spiritu part out. Left me feeling I must have missed class one time too many or something.
Michael K. Magee, The Liturgical Translation of the Response Et cum spiritu tuo: Communio 29 (Spring 2002) 152-171.
W.C. Van Unnik, Dominus Vobiscum: The Background of a Liturgical Formula: A.J.B. Higgins (ed.), New Testament Essays (Manchester, University Press, 1959) 270-305.
19 and 35 page articles on something as simple as “The Lord be with you,” and its response! Liturgical scholars can be very thorough. ICEL translators? Not so much.
I’ve been attending a traditional Latin Mass near my house, so there is no translation problem.
"Καὶ τῷ πνεύματί σου".
This is usually preceeded by "Εἰρήνη πᾶσι" meaning "Peace be with you. It is also used in response to:
" Ἡ χάρις τοῦ Κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ καὶ ἡ ἀγάπη τοῦ Θεοῦ καὶ Πατρὸς καὶ ἡ κοινωνία τοῦ Ἁγίου Πνεύματος εἴη μετὰ πάντων ὑμῶν.", "The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God the Father and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with all of you."
"Καὶ ἔσται τὰ ἐλέη τοῦ μεγάλου Θεοῦ καὶ Σωτῆρος ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ μετὰ πάντων ἡμῶν." "The mercy of our Great God and Savior Jesus Christ be with all of us."
No way we'd say "And also with you"! Its good to see Rome requiring the American Church to toe the line.
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Obama Says A Baby Is A Punishment
**”The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God the Father and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with all of you.”**
That is beautiful.
“That is beautiful.”
Indeed it is, chanted out over the People of God. It was especially beautiful today. Our Metropolitan visited so we had a concelebrated hierarchial liturgy which is really speacial and impressive. The Met. prayed specially for our troops in Afganistan and Iraq and then prayed for “The non Chrisitian, Mohammedan people of Iran who are fearlessly asserting their right to that Freedom which is the birthright of all children of God.”
It is exciting, but I am trying not to get my hopes up. Will all of the bishops have to agree to it? When will it be implemented? My priest is the more progressive type and has even said that he is not interested in learning Latin.
Perhaps they won’t agree and that would be OK with me, because it will get approved by the Vatican for all English speaking countries at that point and the bishops here won’t have anything to say about it. LOl!
Interesting point: When a bishop presides at Mass, one of the "Dominus vobiscum"'s is changed to "Pax vobis".
That is beautiful.
That is the opening Greeting of the Eucharistic liturgy of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America; first introduced in the 1978 Lutheran Book of Worship and continued in the 2007 Evangelical Luthean Worship.
I wholeheartedly agree.
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