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Posted on 03/10/2004 9:37:27 PM PST by malakhi
| Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams |
I did answer your questions.
YOU haven't answered this one:
What PRIZE was Paul telling people to STRIVE for, and cautioned them against being robbed, disqualified or deprived of?
Any of those contradict each other like "love" and "hate"?
Right on. God is love, but God is also consumed with hatred for those who sin, even though they are not His children and He specifically created them in order that they could be an object of His wrath.
Terry, does God need to hate? Does He need to create a special class in order to incur His hate eternally?
God feel tremendous sadness at those who reject Him. Not hatred.
And you still haven't explained how you think those who are reprobates have "rejected" God's mercy.
SD
I'm gonna use my new tools to look up this cleansed part. Want to race? Books only. Using the net cheating. I'm giving myself a head start while you think about it. See ya!
There are also no deadlines.
Proverbs 10:24 The fear of the wicked, it shall come upon him: but the desire of the righteous shall be granted.
When will our righteous desires be granted? In the Lord's own due time (whether in time or eternity), and in His own way, and according to His own will.
In other words, right now if it is expedient, later if we need to have some other learning experiences right now. Many things, such as a desire to rest from our labors, to be saved and redeemed and live with God forever in perfect peace in His heavenly Kingdom, come later (assuming of course that we follow the path that leads to it, see Matthew 7:14).
Or "I am your density". Which, curiously, ties in quite well with both "predestination" and "red dwarf".
Wheels within wheels. ;o)
I believe the example was Dave's kid and I'm SURE that there wasn't any OSAS involved... this is MY story ok???
Seriously, the Catholic view does not involve fear that God is ever going to change His mind - the child can be completely secure with his Father and do everything out of love. The only thing he can't "know" is that HE (the child) will never decided to take his inheritance and go live with pigs.
"For God so loved "just the people who loved Him back"...??? No. The world.
May I suggest that you look up Kosmos ?
1) an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government
2) ornament, decoration, adornment, i.e. the arrangement of the stars, 'the heavenly hosts', as the ornament of the heavens. 1 Pet. 3:3
3) the world, the universe
4) the circle of the earth, the earth
5) the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family
6) the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ
7) world affairs, the aggregate of things earthly
a) the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments riches, advantages, pleasures, etc, which although hollow and frail and fleeting, stir desire, seduce from God and are obstacles to the cause of Christ
8) any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort
a) the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (Rom. 11:12 etc)
b) of believers only, John 1:29; 3:16; 3:17; 6:33; 12:47 1 Cor. 4:9; 2 Cor. 5:19
This was a message to the Jews. They believed that has an exclusive relationship with God. They hated the Samartians and the Gentiles. The word Kosmos to the Jew listening to that phrase would hear that God loved those that were not Jews too. That Christ came for them(the other sheep)
That was a thought that the Jews did not want to hear, they had lost their "special " stand with God.
If indeed it mean as you interpret it all men would be saved because Christ already paid for all their sins
Just go and look up what "the world" means. Remember "in the world" or "of the world"? It most certainly does not refer to just the elect.
I did look it up...please read it
God gave His Son for ALL. Not "all" have accepted it. The ticket is sitting there at the "will call" window just waiting to let them in - all paid up in full. But, sadly, some go unclaimed.
Do you have a passage for the ticket idea?
What that idea would mean is that Christ did not save anyone on the cross , it was simply a potential salvation." It " is still not finished.
Do you believe that when Jesus said it is finished he meant maybe it is finished?
I believe you have little inkling of what He meant. What was "it"?
It was the atonement ...now if it was complete as you interpret complete , then we have no need for missionaries or preaching the Gospel because all mankind is saved.
Do you believe God fore-knew those that would be saved?
Foreknew??? Sure. But that isn't the discussion. It's assumed in "omniscience". He knows who will win the Super Bowl... it doesn't mean He rigged the game.
I am not discussing Calvinism here ...so stop being so defensive
If God foreknew all that would be saved, then Jesus would have have known for whom He died, He would know when it was finished.
The atonement was not general , it was specific for those that would come .
I wonder how many devout christians have wondered why their prayers and pleas to Yehoshua so save their infant children from (physical) death... failed, or the children that have prayed for a parent to be spared (physical) death... were let down, felt they'd been lied to.
Sounds like a real cleaning and not just funny glasses. That's why I don't buy the whole "God looks at us but He sees Jesus instead" line of thought. The "dunghill covered with snow."
We will be (should now be in the process) actually made clean.
For now, I won't comment on the "if we walk in the light" and what that means to faith only and OSAS.
SD
What might that be?
Do you believe Jesus to be a false prophet?
Doesn't matter. YHWH/G-d is the One that I concern myself with.
Isaiah 42
8 I am YHWH, that is My name; and My glory will I not give to another, neither My praise to graven images.
When Paul speak of one's REWARD/PRIZE, he is, typically, not speaking of salvation, as he does here ...1 Corinthians 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.When Paul speaks of salvation, he clearly refers to it as a free gift, ... as he does here ...
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Is it? What makes you say this?
They believed that has an exclusive relationship with God.
I'd say, rather, that Jews, being under the covenant of Sinai, have a different relationship with God. Plenty of examples in the Hebrew scriptures of non-Jews having a relationship with God.
They hated the Samartians and the Gentiles.
ALL Jews hated ALL Samaritans and ALL Gentiles? Sweeping generalization alert.
And, of course, "love your neighbor" comes from Leviticus. Its not original to Jesus.
The word Kosmos to the Jew listening to that phrase would hear that God loved those that were not Jews too.
What makes you think that Jews thought/think that God doesn't love gentiles?
That was a thought that the Jews did not want to hear, they had lost their "special" stand with God.
Please don't pretend to speak for "the Jews". What you are saying is not what Jews think, but rather what your particular theological interpretation suggests that Jews must think.
And then:
It was the atonement ...now if it was complete as you interpret complete , then we have no need for missionaries or preaching the Gospel because all mankind is saved.
So is "it" finished or not? You contradict yourself.
If you can accept that salvation was won on the Cross but we still need "missionaries and preaching..." then you intelelctually understand that while the Crucifixion is over, the effects are still being played out and that they require our participation.
So why you act mystified when we say the same thing, that the Crucifixion is over, but it still need to be played out by having each individual accept it, is beyond me.
The simplest questioning shatters the myth of Calvinism being a coherent system.
If God foreknew all that would be saved, then Jesus would have have known for whom He died, He would know when it was finished.
So, you are saying, basically, that the only people whose sins are not responsible for Jesus being Crucified are those who go to hell?
SD
I only have internet tools here.
SD
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