Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

To: IMRight
You can say it as many times as you wish, but it is still a circular argument. You attempt to demonstrate that He didn't die for all by saying He didn't die for all. There is no persuasive value to the post.
It's all wrapped up in John 3:16

"For God so loved "just the people who loved Him back"...??? No. The world.

May I suggest that you look up Kosmos ?

1) an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government

2) ornament, decoration, adornment, i.e. the arrangement of the stars, 'the heavenly hosts', as the ornament of the heavens. 1 Pet. 3:3

3) the world, the universe

4) the circle of the earth, the earth

5) the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family

6) the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ

7) world affairs, the aggregate of things earthly

a) the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments riches, advantages, pleasures, etc, which although hollow and frail and fleeting, stir desire, seduce from God and are obstacles to the cause of Christ

8) any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort
a) the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (Rom. 11:12 etc)
b) of believers only, John 1:29; 3:16; 3:17; 6:33; 12:47 1 Cor. 4:9; 2 Cor. 5:19

This was a message to the Jews. They believed that has an exclusive relationship with God. They hated the Samartians and the Gentiles. The word Kosmos to the Jew listening to that phrase would hear that God loved those that were not Jews too. That Christ came for them(the other sheep)

That was a thought that the Jews did not want to hear, they had lost their "special " stand with God.

If indeed it mean as you interpret it all men would be saved because Christ already paid for all their sins

Just go and look up what "the world" means. Remember "in the world" or "of the world"? It most certainly does not refer to just the elect.

I did look it up...please read it

God gave His Son for ALL. Not "all" have accepted it. The ticket is sitting there at the "will call" window just waiting to let them in - all paid up in full. But, sadly, some go unclaimed.

Do you have a passage for the ticket idea?

What that idea would mean is that Christ did not save anyone on the cross , it was simply a potential salvation." It " is still not finished.

Do you believe that when Jesus said it is finished he meant maybe it is finished?
I believe you have little inkling of what He meant. What was "it"?

It was the atonement ...now if it was complete as you interpret complete , then we have no need for missionaries or preaching the Gospel because all mankind is saved.

Do you believe God fore-knew those that would be saved?
Foreknew??? Sure. But that isn't the discussion. It's assumed in "omniscience". He knows who will win the Super Bowl... it doesn't mean He rigged the game.

I am not discussing Calvinism here ...so stop being so defensive

If God foreknew all that would be saved, then Jesus would have have known for whom He died, He would know when it was finished.

The atonement was not general , it was specific for those that would come .

2,467 posted on 04/07/2004 1:33:33 PM PDT by RnMomof7 (Broomstick Jockey)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2449 | View Replies ]


To: RnMomof7
This was a message to the Jews.

Is it? What makes you say this?

They believed that has an exclusive relationship with God.

I'd say, rather, that Jews, being under the covenant of Sinai, have a different relationship with God. Plenty of examples in the Hebrew scriptures of non-Jews having a relationship with God.

They hated the Samartians and the Gentiles.

ALL Jews hated ALL Samaritans and ALL Gentiles? Sweeping generalization alert.

And, of course, "love your neighbor" comes from Leviticus. Its not original to Jesus.

The word Kosmos to the Jew listening to that phrase would hear that God loved those that were not Jews too.

What makes you think that Jews thought/think that God doesn't love gentiles?

That was a thought that the Jews did not want to hear, they had lost their "special" stand with God.

Please don't pretend to speak for "the Jews". What you are saying is not what Jews think, but rather what your particular theological interpretation suggests that Jews must think.

2,475 posted on 04/07/2004 1:47:22 PM PDT by malakhi (L'shana haba'ah b'Yerushalayim!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2467 | View Replies ]

To: RnMomof7
What that idea would mean is that Christ did not save anyone on the cross , it was simply a potential salvation." It " is still not finished.

And then:

It was the atonement ...now if it was complete as you interpret complete , then we have no need for missionaries or preaching the Gospel because all mankind is saved.

So is "it" finished or not? You contradict yourself.

If you can accept that salvation was won on the Cross but we still need "missionaries and preaching..." then you intelelctually understand that while the Crucifixion is over, the effects are still being played out and that they require our participation.

So why you act mystified when we say the same thing, that the Crucifixion is over, but it still need to be played out by having each individual accept it, is beyond me.

The simplest questioning shatters the myth of Calvinism being a coherent system.

If God foreknew all that would be saved, then Jesus would have have known for whom He died, He would know when it was finished.

So, you are saying, basically, that the only people whose sins are not responsible for Jesus being Crucified are those who go to hell?

SD

2,476 posted on 04/07/2004 1:47:59 PM PDT by SoothingDave
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2467 | View Replies ]

To: RnMomof7
I did look it up...please read it

So you're interpretation rests on definition 8b??? At the exclusion of 5 & 6? That's interesting... and convenient. Definition six seems to fit the context quite a bit better.

Do you have a passage for the ticket idea?

Um yeah?! John 3:16.

For God so loved (big set) the (whole) world that whoever believes in Him (smaller subset) shall not perish.

Sure looks like "tickets purchased for the masses - redeemed by just a few"

It was the atonement ...now if it was complete as you interpret complete , then we have no need for missionaries or preaching the Gospel because all mankind is saved.

Really? But I thought you said it was "accepted" at the resurrection? Wouldn't that make Jesus a liar for calling it completed three days early?

I am not discussing Calvinism here ...so stop being so defensive

The atonement was not general , it was specific for those that would come .

And you think you're not "discussing Calvinism here"???

2,483 posted on 04/07/2004 1:59:22 PM PDT by IMRight
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2467 | View Replies ]

To: RnMomof7
Do you have a passage for the ticket idea?

Here's another one:

Romans 5:18-19

"Therefore as (so "in the same way") by the offence of one judgment came upon all men (surely you take that to mean ALL?) to condemnation; even so (!!) by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."

Please don't tell me that you have a contextual way that "all men" here is not the "all men" from earlier in the same verse? Especially with the "as" and "even so"?

Moving on to 19:

"For as (again - "in the same way") by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many (but not ALL?) be made righteous."

So "tickets purchased for ALL" but only "many" redeem them.

The "free gift" is there for ALL. Only some are "made righteous".

2,501 posted on 04/07/2004 2:35:06 PM PDT by IMRight
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2467 | View Replies ]

To: RnMomof7; ET(end tyranny)
May I suggest that you look up Kosmos ?

And may I suggest that if one selects option #5 on your list of definitions rather than the one with the verses behind it written by a Calvinist then your whol argument falls apart. Are you taking classes from ET in using a lexicon?

2,532 posted on 04/07/2004 5:06:17 PM PDT by the808bass
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2467 | View Replies ]

To: RnMomof7
I continue to admire your stamina, your righteous Biblical knowledge, your incisive, logical and Scriptural rebuttals, and your patience.

I had no idea these threads were filled with so much "oh-yeah-sez-who-make-me-what's-it-to-ya?"

2,561 posted on 04/07/2004 10:42:21 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg (There are very few shades of gray.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2467 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson