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Posted on 03/10/2004 9:37:27 PM PST by malakhi
| Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams |
No movies? You too?:') Throw me some scripture on this stuff my way please. Just a little at a x though. I'm only good for about one paragraph and then I go scrolling to see what everyone else talking about :')
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1095208/posts?page=1840#1840
If Cindy did not mean she gets bored reading scripture , she needs to choose her words more carefully
So Mack how bout you answering . If jesus died for the sins of all men..how does a "fair" God send any to hell?
How can a just God demand double payment ?
God expects payment with interest. Read the parable of the talents.
SD
Now that is straightened out I want to ask you again , did Jesus die for those burning in Hell?
How can a just God demand double payment ?
Non-acceptance of Jesus' atoning sacrifice cannot be paid for by Jesus' sacrifice.
Those who do not believe ... die in their sins.John 8:21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.There is no double payment.
22 Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come.
23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
I'll answer for Mack.
The logical answer is that He IS fair, but is a failure at saving all. (Otherwise, everyone would go to Heaven.)
Logical but un-Biblical.
That's why I am a Calvanist :-)
The verses spoke for themselves, the concordance and lexicon just drive the point home.
You might try checking out a dictionary which also stresses the point.
I did the work for you, here:
Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, |
| reward from the Greek 2603 katabrabeuo kat-ab-rab-yoo'-o 1) to decide as umpire against someone 2) to defraud or beguile of the prize of victory 3) metaph. to deprive of salvation Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 1 AV - beguile of (one's) reward 1; Colossians 2 (NIV) 18 Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. Colossians 2 (NASB) 18 Let no one keep (1) defrauding you of your prize by (2) delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, (3) inflated without cause by his (4) fleshly mind, Colossians 2 (AMP) 18 Let no one defraud you by acting as an umpire and declaring you unworthy and disqualifying you for the prize, insisting on self-abasement and worship of angels, taking his stand on visions [he claims] he has seen, vainly puffed up by his sensuous notions and inflated by his unspiritual thoughts and fleshly conceit, Colossians 2 (NLV) 18 Do not let anyone rob you of your prize. They will try to get you to bow down in worship of angels. They think this shows you are not proud. They say they were told to do this in a dream. These people are proud because of their sinful minds. Colossians 2 (ASV) 18 Let no man rob you of your prize by a voluntary humility and worshipping of the angels, dwelling in the things which he hath seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, Colossians 2 (YLT) 18 let no one beguile you of your prize, delighting in humble-mindedness and [in] worship of the messengers, intruding into the things he hath not seen, being vainly puffed up by the mind of his flesh, Colossians 2 (DARBY) 18 Let no one fraudulently deprive you of your prize, doing his own will in humility and worship of angels, entering into things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by the mind of his flesh, Colossians 2 (NIRV) 18 Some people enjoy pretending they aren't proud. They worship angels. But don't let people like that hold you back from winning the prize. They tell you every little thing about what they have seen. Their minds are not guided by the Holy Spirit. So they are proud of their useless ideas. Let's see, most versions seem to agree that there is a prize to be awarded. prize - 1. something offered or given to the winner of a contest, etc. 2. anything worth striving for Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. reward - 1. something given in return for something done 2. money offered, as for capturing a criminal - vt. to give a reward to someone for service etc. beguile - 1. to mislead by guile 2. to deprive (of) by deceit. 3.to pass time pleasantly. 4. to charm of delight - beguilement. disqualify - to make or declare unqualified, unfit, or ineligble rob - vt. robbed, robbing |< to take property from unlawfully by using or threatening force. 2 to deprive of something unjustly or injuriously. 1 Corinthians 9 (NIV) 24 Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize. 25 Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last; but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. 26 Therefore I do not run like a man running aimlessly; I do not fight like a man beating the air. 27 No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize. 1 Corinthians 9 (NASB) 24 (1) Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives (2) the prize? (3) Run in such a way that you may win. 25 Everyone who (4) competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable (5) wreath, but we an imperishable. 26 Therefore I (6) run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not (7) beating the air; 27 but I discipline (8) my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified. 1 Corinthians 9 (AMP) 24 Do you not know that in a race all the runners compete, but [only] one receives the prize? So run [your race] that you may lay hold [of the prize] and make it yours. 25 Now every athlete who goes into training conducts himself temperately and restricts himself in all things. They do it to win a wreath that will soon wither, but we [do it to receive a crown of eternal blessedness] that cannot wither. 26 Therefore I do not run uncertainly (without definite aim). I do not box like one beating the air and striking without an adversary. 27 But [like a boxer] I buffet my body [handle it roughly, discipline it by hardships] and subdue it, for fear that after proclaiming to others the Gospel and things pertaining to it, I myself should become unfit [not stand the test, be unapproved and rejected as a counterfeit]. 1 Corinthians 9 (NLT) 24 Remember that in a race everyone runs, but only one person gets the prize. You also must run in such a way that you will win. 25 All athletes practice strict self-control. They do it to win a prize that will fade away, but we do it for an eternal prize. 26 So I run straight to the goal with purpose in every step. I am not like a boxer who misses his punches.[1] 27 I discipline my body like an athlete, training it to do what it should. Otherwise, I fear that after preaching to others I myself might be disqualified. 1 Corinthians 9 (KJV) 24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. 25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. 26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: 27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. |
Definitions came from the New World Dictionary.
Now then....
What PRIZE was Paul telling people to STRIVE for, and cautioned them against being robbed, disqualified or deprived of?
I'll answer for Mack.
Aren't you sweet.
The logical answer is that He IS fair, but is a failure at saving all.
I would think that a more logical answer is that He doesn't send people to He11. They send themselves there.
Where does any of that scripture say seeing your good works saves anyone? You are reading into the text something that is not there .
These commands like all of the admonitions had nothing to do with "saving anyone ".They did have to do with God being glorified in HIS people .
Rom 2:19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
Rom 2:20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.
Rom 2:21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
Rom 2:22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?
Rom 2:23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
Rom 2:24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
As was said to David
2Sa 12:14 Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also [that is] born unto thee shall surely die.
1Ti 6:1 Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honour, that the name of God and [his] doctrine be not blasphemed.
Our sin and our walk either give God glory or blaspheme His name in the mouth of the heathens
For a man to think one is saved by HIS walk is contrary to the word of God , that says clearly that it is the word of God , that brings one to faith , not our feeble works that bring a man to faith and salvation.
Rom 10:17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
1Cr 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
2Cr 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
God is jealous for His name , salvation is all about God, not one with about the work or behavior of men. That is what the gospel teaches .
Not the question at hand
The question is If Christ died for the sin of all men , and that sacrifice was accepted (as it was , proved by the resurrection)
Then how can a Just God demand a double payment ?
Then how can a Just God demand a double payment ?
That's an interesting example to use. Think about the sacrifice it replaced. If an acceptable lamb was sacrificed and you failed to eat it what happened? If an acceptable lamb was sacrificed and you failed to apply the blood to the door - what happened to your firstborn?
The existence of a sacrifice without the application of the sacrifice to the sin/person is without effect.
No further payment is required. But that doesn't mean you turned in the ticket - or even picket it up at the "will call" window.
He was a prophet and a child of YHWH, just as we are chidren of YHWH. To the rest... NO. He as a messenger was sent by YHWH, to preach repentance, and about the coming kingdom of YHWH, which he did, and in so doing he saved his own soul, and no one else's.
Is that clear enough for you? If not, try reading Ezekiel 33
7 So thou, O son of man, I have set thee a watchman unto the house of Israel; therefore thou shalt hear the word at my mouth, and warn them from me.
8 When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
9 Nevertheless, if thou warn the wicked of his way to turn from it; if he do not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.
10 Therefore, O thou son of man, speak unto the house of Israel; Thus ye speak, saying, If our transgressions and our sins be upon us, and we pine away in them, how should we then live?
11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
SD
I simply paraphrased your words Cindy . You have once again said that you find "list" of scripture irrelevant..(I do not know how you would know this if you never finish reading them)
I have considered you a friend too, I think if you read back your "wise " comment on Calvinism is what started the exchange between us this time.One can be a cult member and have more respect from the "Christians "here than fellow believers that hold a different soteriology .
If the "Christians" on this thread were as anxious to clean off the heresies of some of the posters here as they are to ward off the Calvinists, may be there would have been space and time to teach Steve.
Cindy in the end your witness will save no one , it's purpose is to glorify God not save men .
Pretending that one can have fellowship with cult members may make you feel better, but it saves no one, draws no one to Christ and is on direct opposition to the council of God .
In the last posts you accused me of hitting abuse and never apologized when it was your non Christian friend that drew the mod ...Did I hear an apology ..nope . Why do I think that if I were a heathen I would have had one?
As someone once observed Perception is reality
Dave I know that as a Catholic you believe all the Baptized are "saved " (regenerated)and their salvation is theirs to lose.So perhaps you have a hard time understanding the question.But the protestants understand the question and they know that they do not like the answer that their soteriology says is necessary .
This question does not deal with the love of God..it deals with the Justice of God..
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