English And Welsh Are Races Apart

BBC ^ | 6-30-2002

[blam]

Sunday, 30 June, 2002, 15:31 GMT 16:31 UK

English and Welsh are races apart

Gene scientists claim to have found proof that the Welsh are the "true" Britons.

The research supports the idea that Celtic Britain underwent a form of ethnic cleansing by Anglo-Saxons invaders following the Roman withdrawal in the fifth century.

Genetic tests show clear differences between the Welsh and English

It suggests that between 50% and 100% of the indigenous population of what was to become England was wiped out, with Offa's Dyke acting as a "genetic barrier" protecting those on the Welsh side.

And the upheaval can be traced to this day through genetic differences between the English and the Welsh.

Academics at University College in London comparing a sample of men from the UK with those from an area of the Netherlands where the Anglo-Saxons are thought to have originated found the English subjects had genes that were almost identical.

But there were clear differences between the genetic make-up of Welsh people studied.

The research team studied the Y-chromosome, which is passed almost unchanged from father to son, and looked for certain genetic markers.

Ethnic links: Many races share common bonds

They chose seven market towns mentioned in the Domesday Book of 1086 and studied 313 male volunteers whose paternal grandfather had also lived in the area.

They then compared this with samples from Norway and with Friesland, now a northern province of the Netherlands.

The English and Frisians studied had almost identical genetic make-up but the English and Welsh were very different.

The researchers concluded the most likely explanation for this was a large-scale Anglo-Saxon invasion, which devastated the Celtic population of England, but did not reach Wales.

Dr Mark Thomas, of the Centre for Genetic Anthropology at UCL, said their findings suggested that a migration occurred within the last 2,500 years.

Genetic links

It reinforced the idea that the Welsh were the true indigenous Britons.

In April last year, research for a BBC programme on the Vikings revealed strong genetic links between the Welsh and Irish Celts and the Basques of northern Spain and south France.

It suggested a possible link between the Celts and Basques, dating back tens of thousands of years.

The UCL research into the more recent Anglo-Saxon period suggested a migration on a huge scale.

"It appears England is made up of an ethnic cleansing event from people coming across from the continent after the Romans left," he said.

Celtic Britons

Archaeologists after the Second World War rejected the traditionally held view that an Anglo-Saxon invasion pushed the indigenous Celtic Britons to the fringes of Britain.

Instead, they said the arrival of Anglo-Saxon culture could have come from trade or a small ruling elite.

But the latest research by the UCL team, "using genetics as a history book", appears to support the original view of a large-scale invasion of England.

It suggests that the Welsh border was more of a genetic barrier to the Anglo-Saxon Y chromosome gene flow than the North Sea.

Dr Thomas added: "Our findings completely overturn the modern view of the origins of the English."

[bc2]

I wanted to read the rest of the thread but now my monitor is covered with spray from laughing so hard!!!

I am Welsh and Irish, the Welsh are truly under-represented in the Celtic world.

Cymru am byth! Y Ddraig Goch ddyry gychwyn!

and since this is probably going to be an anti-English thread...

Twll dîn pob Sais!!!

[bc2]

hmm, I just noticed this is over a year old!

oh well, sorry!

[blam]

"This is a good article except that it refers to the native Britons as Celts. They were not Celts."

I agree. I read an article recently about a genetic study that said that the Welsh and Irish were more closely related to the Basque than any others in the region. If I can find the article, I'll post it.

[blam]

Ping.

[risk]

Great thread!

[Rebelbase]

"The Dark Ages was worldwide.""

I've read the opposite (albeit years and years ago), that the Middle East cities prospered during the "dark ages" and in Europe Moorish Spain did the same.

What have you read that contradicts that?

[Jim Noble]

Gene scientists claim to have found proof that the Welsh are the "true" Britons.

Nice lookin', those Britons, eh?

[risk]

I'll admit being jealous, but I have no idea what she sees in Michael Douglas.

[blam]

"I've read the opposite (albeit years and years ago), that the Middle East cities prospered during the "dark ages" and in Europe Moorish Spain did the same."

The tree-rings worldwide recorded this event. See the link below.

The Dark Ages, Were They Darker Than We Imagined?

Also, Professor Mike Baillie covers this subject in his excellent book, Exodus To Arthur

[blam]

"I've read the opposite (albeit years and years ago), that the Middle East cities prospered during the "dark ages" and in Europe Moorish Spain did the same."

The tree-rings worldwide recorded this event. See the link below.

The Dark Ages, Were They Darker Than We Imagined?

" In China, "the stars were lost from view for three months". Records indicate that the light from the Sun dimmed, the expected rains did not eventuate, and snow was seen in the middle of summer. Famine was widespread, and in the midst of the turmoil, the Emperor abandoned the capital."

Also, Professor Mike Baillie covers this subject in his excellent book, Exodus To Arthur

[William Terrell]

The Celts apparently originated in Central Europe. . .

Did they evolve from apes at that spot, you think?

[edwin hubble]

"The ancient Gaelic language of Scotland and Ireland seems to come from the original Gallic language of Gaul in southern Europe and Galatia, where the Gauls established colonies in Turkey as mercenaries for the Roman empire. "

From a homeland somewhere near the Black Sea the Celts moved throughout Western Europe. Their cousins moved East to India. Sanscrit is closely akin to Gaelic in vocabulary and structure.

[Quix]

Lost tribes of Israel?

Anyone know of genetic studies further along on that issue?

[P.O.E.]

Aye an' a bit of Mackeral settler rack and ruin
ran it doon by the haim, 'ma place
well I slapped me and I slapped it doon in the side
and I cried, cried, cried.

The fear a fallen down taken never back the raize
and then Craig Marion, get out wi' ye Claymore out mi pocket
a' ran doon, doon the middin stain
picking the fiery horde that was fallen around ma feet.

Never he cried, never shall it ye get me alive
ye rotten hound of the burnie crew.
Well I snatched fer the blade O my Claymore
cut and thrust and I fell doon before him round his feet.
Aye!
A roar he cried
frae the bottom of his heart that I would nay fall but as dead,
dead as 'a can be by his feet; de ya ken?


...and the wind cried back.



- Several species of small furry animals gathered together in a cave and grooving with a pict (Pink Floyd)

[Quix]

Now where have I heard that before?

Oh, yes, guard's bum thumping, millions pilfering, Fosterizing, Israel exterminating [he thinks] Arafart.

[Quix]

Now I've forgotten all I ever knew about the Picts.

A refresher summary, please?

[Quix]

Fascinating.

Thanks.

[Quix]

I've even ran across contentions that the Basques came independently from the stars.

But I didn't put any significant stock in it.

Is it true that their language seems unrelated to any other known language? Or are there some meager associations with something or other?