English And Welsh Are Races Apart

BBC ^ | 6-30-2002

[blam]

Sunday, 30 June, 2002, 15:31 GMT 16:31 UK

English and Welsh are races apart

Gene scientists claim to have found proof that the Welsh are the "true" Britons.

The research supports the idea that Celtic Britain underwent a form of ethnic cleansing by Anglo-Saxons invaders following the Roman withdrawal in the fifth century.

Genetic tests show clear differences between the Welsh and English

It suggests that between 50% and 100% of the indigenous population of what was to become England was wiped out, with Offa's Dyke acting as a "genetic barrier" protecting those on the Welsh side.

And the upheaval can be traced to this day through genetic differences between the English and the Welsh.

Academics at University College in London comparing a sample of men from the UK with those from an area of the Netherlands where the Anglo-Saxons are thought to have originated found the English subjects had genes that were almost identical.

But there were clear differences between the genetic make-up of Welsh people studied.

The research team studied the Y-chromosome, which is passed almost unchanged from father to son, and looked for certain genetic markers.

Ethnic links: Many races share common bonds

They chose seven market towns mentioned in the Domesday Book of 1086 and studied 313 male volunteers whose paternal grandfather had also lived in the area.

They then compared this with samples from Norway and with Friesland, now a northern province of the Netherlands.

The English and Frisians studied had almost identical genetic make-up but the English and Welsh were very different.

The researchers concluded the most likely explanation for this was a large-scale Anglo-Saxon invasion, which devastated the Celtic population of England, but did not reach Wales.

Dr Mark Thomas, of the Centre for Genetic Anthropology at UCL, said their findings suggested that a migration occurred within the last 2,500 years.

Genetic links

It reinforced the idea that the Welsh were the true indigenous Britons.

In April last year, research for a BBC programme on the Vikings revealed strong genetic links between the Welsh and Irish Celts and the Basques of northern Spain and south France.

It suggested a possible link between the Celts and Basques, dating back tens of thousands of years.

The UCL research into the more recent Anglo-Saxon period suggested a migration on a huge scale.

"It appears England is made up of an ethnic cleansing event from people coming across from the continent after the Romans left," he said.

Celtic Britons

Archaeologists after the Second World War rejected the traditionally held view that an Anglo-Saxon invasion pushed the indigenous Celtic Britons to the fringes of Britain.

Instead, they said the arrival of Anglo-Saxon culture could have come from trade or a small ruling elite.

But the latest research by the UCL team, "using genetics as a history book", appears to support the original view of a large-scale invasion of England.

It suggests that the Welsh border was more of a genetic barrier to the Anglo-Saxon Y chromosome gene flow than the North Sea.

Dr Thomas added: "Our findings completely overturn the modern view of the origins of the English."

[Consort]

Twghry is pronounced as /toxri/.

[eniapmot]

languages spoken by the Finns,the Hungarians,and the Mari.

The closest language to Finnish is Estonian. All these languages are Altaic, and related to many languages of northern Russia. Also to Japanese and Korean.

Basque is the big mystery. .. along with some Amerindian languages (Zuni and Navajo, I think).

[eniapmot]

I haven't read that book, but I understand that there were Indo-European speakers in the region of the Cherchen desert. I suppose that the region was more hospitable a couple of thousand years ago.

[blam]

"I suppose that the region was more hospitable a couple of thousand years ago."

They were there 4,000 years ago. 3,000 year old fabrics from the mummies there are just like those at the Celtic sites at Hallstat. There is some speculation that they were the speakers of Tocharian A/B.

[blam]

Good link, thanks.

The modern day Uygurs have choosen one (the reconstructed image) of the caucasian mummies discovered there"The Beauty Of Loulan" as a national symbol, 'The mother of our country.' Her image now appears on coins, flags and etc.

[blam]

"Basque is the big mystery. .. along with some Amerindian languages (Zuni and Navajo, I think)."

See my link in post #262.

[blam]

4,000 year old Beauty Of Loulan.

[Consort]

Flag of England	Flag of Wales	Flag of Uighur

[eniapmot]

That's not the way I read it. They migrated to Cherchen 4000 years ago, but nobody is sure when they left, except that they may have been in Afghanistan in 200 AD.

Anyway, thanks for the reference

[sneakypete]

I believe Estonian is very similar to Finnish. The capital of Estonia is Tallinn. That sounds kind of Finnish to me.

I dunno. Could be,but I've never seen Estonian grouped in with Finnish,Hungarian,and Mari as a "Finno-Ugiric" language. Then again,it's not very far from Finland,and is a likely landing place for any Finns who were migrating to Yoshkar-Ola,or visa-versa.

[sneakypete]

Does anyone know who the people were that spoke/wrote Tocharian A and B?

I surely don't know. Never even heard of them before your post. A good place to find the answers to questions like this can be found by doing a Google search using "Endangered Languages" as the keywords. LOTS of fascinating web sites will pop up.

[sneakypete]

The closest language to Finnish is Estonian.

I saw this on another post,and don't believe this is true when it comes to the older forms of Finnish. While there is no doubt there must be a lot of overlap by this time due to Estonia being right on the coast and the most logical route through Russia. Like I wrote earlier,I did a web search on endangered languages after my last trip to Russia,and Mari is a endangered language that is ONLY related to the Finnish language and Hungarian. Estonian isn't or wasn't listed as being a Finno-Ugric language back then. language

[Black Agnes]

Neat discussion.

[TRUTHFULTOTHECORE]

Listen Keithtoo and the rest of you. I speak thre truth! One can plainly see 90% of all Brittsh people look just like Jews and Syrians (save for nose shape). This Danish/Northern German genes/ancestry bit for English is true but its still as good as a bunch of bull. The Anglo-Saxons and Vikings were mostly all men. They came to Britain and married (or just mixed with) the largely Syrian descended British ladies living there. And for a time quite Syrian descended British men continued to cross with the native Syrian-British ladies. But the Viking men, who came after the German men, finished the job of Y chromosoming the Syrian Y out of existence in England. Later when England got powerful English soldiers began strutting their stuff all over Ireland, Scotland, and Wales (these areas had been usually less Viking settled than England). As a result of soldier crossing they all started looking more like the Enlish and getting the occasional Viking/German Y chromosome. Really the English are usually 50-70% Syrian themselves. The Welsh 70-90% Syrian. THe Irish 60-90%. The Scots 60-70%. The fact that a lot of Welsh are usually light skinned (though there are olive-skinned exceptions) doesn't mean they're that significantly of German/Viking blood. Its that Wales is geographically cold a lot of the year and mother nature "felt"that their few Viking/German genes would serve them better for fair skin suitable to a mostly cold climate than their way larger amount of Meditteranean/syrian genes for olive skin. Mother nature is like that. A bunch of grizzly bears turned out to be like 70-80% polar bear in genes but yet the bears looked just like grizzlies. Why? Because mother nature felt these bears living so far south of the North Pole would be better suited to have their small of grizzly genes predominate. Same (pretty much) for the British.

[AEMILIUS PAULUS]

There are hints, based upon artifacts, that there were Celts in Spain circa 1800 B.C.. This could explain the intermixture with the Basque. Assuming the Basque is indigenous to Spain.

[muawiyah]

We went through this exact same thing several months ago. The conclusion was the same as it always has been ! the Anglo-Saxon heathens must return from whence they came.

[SCalGal]

OK, that does it, I can claim I am totally Celtic. Granparents were Danish, English, German which came from the same stock.

So now, you too, can check the "other" box on the census forms and write in Celtic.

[blam]

This one post disputes everything that you've said. BTW, Welcome aboard

Cheddar Man (9,000 year old Brits)

[Tribune7]

with Offa's Dyke acting as a "genetic barrier"

I could see where that could be a genetic barrier.

[blam]

"We went through this exact same thing several months ago. The conclusion was the same as it always has been ! the Anglo-Saxon heathens must return from whence they came."

LOL. I think this is the same thread. It's almost a year old.