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English And Welsh Are Races Apart
BBC ^ | 6-30-2002

Posted on 07/04/2002 5:27:12 PM PDT by blam

Sunday, 30 June, 2002, 15:31 GMT 16:31 UK

English and Welsh are races apart

Gene scientists claim to have found proof that the Welsh are the "true" Britons.

The research supports the idea that Celtic Britain underwent a form of ethnic cleansing by Anglo-Saxons invaders following the Roman withdrawal in the fifth century.

Genetic tests show clear differences between the Welsh and English

It suggests that between 50% and 100% of the indigenous population of what was to become England was wiped out, with Offa's Dyke acting as a "genetic barrier" protecting those on the Welsh side.

And the upheaval can be traced to this day through genetic differences between the English and the Welsh.

Academics at University College in London comparing a sample of men from the UK with those from an area of the Netherlands where the Anglo-Saxons are thought to have originated found the English subjects had genes that were almost identical.

But there were clear differences between the genetic make-up of Welsh people studied.

The research team studied the Y-chromosome, which is passed almost unchanged from father to son, and looked for certain genetic markers.

Ethnic links: Many races share common bonds

They chose seven market towns mentioned in the Domesday Book of 1086 and studied 313 male volunteers whose paternal grandfather had also lived in the area.

They then compared this with samples from Norway and with Friesland, now a northern province of the Netherlands.

The English and Frisians studied had almost identical genetic make-up but the English and Welsh were very different.

The researchers concluded the most likely explanation for this was a large-scale Anglo-Saxon invasion, which devastated the Celtic population of England, but did not reach Wales.

Dr Mark Thomas, of the Centre for Genetic Anthropology at UCL, said their findings suggested that a migration occurred within the last 2,500 years.

Genetic links

It reinforced the idea that the Welsh were the true indigenous Britons.

In April last year, research for a BBC programme on the Vikings revealed strong genetic links between the Welsh and Irish Celts and the Basques of northern Spain and south France.

It suggested a possible link between the Celts and Basques, dating back tens of thousands of years.

The UCL research into the more recent Anglo-Saxon period suggested a migration on a huge scale.

"It appears England is made up of an ethnic cleansing event from people coming across from the continent after the Romans left," he said.

Celtic Britons

Archaeologists after the Second World War rejected the traditionally held view that an Anglo-Saxon invasion pushed the indigenous Celtic Britons to the fringes of Britain.

Instead, they said the arrival of Anglo-Saxon culture could have come from trade or a small ruling elite.

But the latest research by the UCL team, "using genetics as a history book", appears to support the original view of a large-scale invasion of England.

It suggests that the Welsh border was more of a genetic barrier to the Anglo-Saxon Y chromosome gene flow than the North Sea.

Dr Thomas added: "Our findings completely overturn the modern view of the origins of the English."


TOPICS: News/Current Events; United Kingdom
KEYWORDS: ancientautopsies; ancientnavigation; apart; archaeology; basques; bookofinvasions; caledonia; celts; cymraeg; cymru; cymry; domesdaybook; england; english; evolution; fartyshadesofgreen; genealogy; genetics; ggg; godsgravesglyphs; greatormecoppermine; helixmakemineadouble; history; iberia; ireland; kingarthur; normanconquest; pictish; picts; race; races; sociobiology; spain; uk; unitedkingdom; wales; welsh
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To: blam
There really is nothing like a good ethnic cleansing to tidy up the gene pool.
181 posted on 07/04/2002 10:58:11 PM PDT by ArneFufkin
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To: blam
They were before the Fenians (Feeney's), right? Doesn't legend have it that Ireland was invaded at least 3 times before the Celts came?
182 posted on 07/04/2002 10:59:21 PM PDT by stands2reason
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To: dr_who
>That's just the point. That's 3 minutes I can't spare.

If you don't have 3 minutes to read, you don't have 3 minutes to write. Some people talk all the time but never listen. They think a monologue is a dialogue. Lots of fun to be with.

183 posted on 07/04/2002 11:00:38 PM PDT by LostTribe
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To: dr_who
Of course not. The rest of Spain isn't part of Europe. God just tacked it onto the end of France at the last minute.

Haha, good one. But seriously Spanish and Pourtgese are both Romance languages which relates directly in the Indo-European language family. But the Basque region is between France and the Iberia, so it is really weird that they do not speak an European language. Perhaps the Basques are aliens.

184 posted on 07/04/2002 11:01:06 PM PDT by MinorityRepublican
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To: LostTribe
Besides, everyone knows that the lost tribes of Israel all crossed into North America via the old land bridge and settled in Fargo, North Dakota. They were following the mammoths.
185 posted on 07/04/2002 11:01:44 PM PDT by dr_who
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To: MinorityRepublican
From outer space. Would explain a great deal.
186 posted on 07/04/2002 11:03:31 PM PDT by dr_who
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Comment #187 Removed by Moderator

To: Rightwing Conspiratr1
In our language you'll find the truth. Almost no words from the Celts--our most basic words like one, father, head, water, and land are all Germanic.
188 posted on 07/04/2002 11:05:17 PM PDT by stands2reason
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To: LostTribe
Absolutely. And I truly do believe that our friend Thor was on the right track. He just wanted to prove migrations that were more recent than they probably were. There's no question that North & South American "Indians" came from elsewhere. Did they come by boats via Polynesia? Ummm, questionable. More likely way north from Asia via the landbridge. Or maybe they came from both places and intermarried etc.. Someday, maybe somebody will do a DNA study and settle the question once & for all. It's fascinating though,& ya gotta give ol' Thor credit for trying.
189 posted on 07/04/2002 11:06:24 PM PDT by leilani
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To: leilani
>maybe somebody will do a DNA study and settle the question once & for all. It's fascinating though,& ya gotta give ol' Thor credit for trying.

Absolutely. Thor is a modern day adventurer and hero. Anyone who points out that the King has no Clothes has detractors, especially the King!

Now when someone comes up with an HONEST and MEANINGFUL genetic test it might answer at least a few things. Meanwhile, don't take any .....

190 posted on 07/04/2002 11:10:26 PM PDT by LostTribe
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To: LostTribe
Hey, I'm not the one who's steadfastly arguing that there is some sort of link between Saxons/Celts and the Jews.
191 posted on 07/04/2002 11:11:15 PM PDT by dr_who
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To: LostTribe
Say what? Sorry, I'm just not following.
192 posted on 07/04/2002 11:27:25 PM PDT by leilani
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To: Illbay
And, who came before the Welsh? Don't tell me "the indians"!
193 posted on 07/04/2002 11:37:45 PM PDT by SamBees
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To: MinorityRepublican
"It confuses me too, are the Basque people even real Europeans?"

The linguistic evidence suggests that they are early Europeans but, the DNA evidence suggests otherwise. Maybe they were/are an early exiled group of Celts?

194 posted on 07/05/2002 7:58:01 AM PDT by blam
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To: leilani
>Say what?

Just agreeing with you. Until genetic testing becomes reliable, or its sponsors become trustworthy, don't take any wooden nickels, or whatever...

195 posted on 07/05/2002 7:59:47 AM PDT by LostTribe
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To: leilani
Archaeologists Find Celts In Unlikely Spot: Central Turkey
196 posted on 07/05/2002 8:00:34 AM PDT by blam
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To: blam
>The linguistic evidence suggests

Good Morning Blam. Wish I had the great article I read several months ago by a prominent archeologist/linguist who made the point that relying on language patterns to come to conclusions about peoples is very perilous. He said that as a backup or confirming factor it is OK, but otherwise it is most unreliable. I note with interest how many posts on this thread are relying on language rather than archeology.

197 posted on 07/05/2002 8:03:28 AM PDT by LostTribe
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To: blam
Your link to the Celts in Turkey is a good one. When even the NYT prints an article like this you know it has become fairly mainstream.
198 posted on 07/05/2002 8:06:05 AM PDT by LostTribe
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To: stands2reason
Old Irish Kingdoms And Clans

Go here for more than you wanted to know. (lol)

199 posted on 07/05/2002 8:10:22 AM PDT by blam
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To: LostTribe
"Wish I had the great article I read several months ago by a prominent archeologist/linguist who made the point that relying on language patterns to come to conclusions about peoples is very perilous. "

I agree. But, I am left to speculate with whatever information is available.

200 posted on 07/05/2002 8:14:04 AM PDT by blam
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