I think this is "before & after"...
Posted on 10/08/2018 7:04:14 AM PDT by ETL
A limousine that crashed and killed 20 people in upstate New York on Saturday was reportedly in “terrible condition,” and was a replacement vehicle after the group’s rented bus broke down before reaching its destination.
All 18 inside the vehicle were killed, along with two bystanders after the 2001 Ford Excursion limousine – believed to be headed to a birthday party -- ran through an intersection and struck a parked 2015 Toyota Highlander outside the Apple Barrel Country Store.
-snip-
The limousine was traveling southwest on state Route 30 in Schoharie, about 170 miles north of New York City and 43 miles west of Albany, when it went through the intersection with Route 30A and struck the parked Toyota Highlander.
The site of the crash is notorious for accidents and has a been a point of concern among local residents for years.
"More accidents than I can count," Jessica Kirby, managing director of the Apple Barrel Country Store and Cafe told the AP in an email. "We have been asking for something to be done for years."
The intersection underwent construction in 2008 following a deadly accident, Kirby told the AP.
-snip-
Schoharie Town Supervisor Alan Tavenner told the Times Union of Albany that transportation officials attempted to make the intersection safer about seven years ago.
The improvements, however, didn’t seem to work.
"There have been tractor trailers that have come barreling down that hill and it was a miracle they didn't kill somebody," Tavenner said.
"I honestly think it was a more dangerous intersection than it was before," he told The New York Times.
(Excerpt) Read more at foxnews.com ...
“there is absolutely no hope of stopping.”
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Some roads in that area have an uphill pull-off ramp to handle break failure before careening to the bottom.
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Steep hill and car with momentum, probably would have been/ should have been tapping the brakes all the way down. I'll bet they check the hill for fluid.
I’m a bit confused as to the statements that the intersection is worse than it was. Google earth timeline show that highway used to make a turnto the east and tie into the other highway several hundred feet away. Then they “T’d” up ahen they rebuilt it. Looking at the signs ahead of the stop sign they have a stop ahead sign 300 or so feet away and before that about 600 feet away they have a 50mph sign. Kind of stange that they post 50mph less than 1/4 mile from a stop sign. This could be a big part of the problem.
Today it may have been a birthday party?
Why can't the press get the facts before they speculate?
They're not doing their jobs as usual.
Skid marks, if any, would go a long way in figuring out what happened. Short ones, missed stop sign, assuming he would have at least attempted to brake at the last second. No skid marks, no brakes.
60+ mph and no seat belts. They were thrown around like tomatoes in a bucket, with similar results.
“I’m really pi$$ed that GM didn’t use stainless steel brake lines. I wonder if Ford had the same problem.”
So far as I know, no auto mfr. uses stainless steel for brake lines. Seems to me that you would have had the underside of a 2004 pickup inspected for this kind of a problem. I find your comment to be unbelievable since all vehicles from years even before 2004 have two separate braking systems and a double master cylinder just to make sure that any brake line or other hydraulic failure would result in only half the braking being compromised.
Yep, they spoke with the aunt and the brother of a victim among others, they could have easily ascertained the purpose of the trip was to celebrate one of the sisters 3oth and they were headed to Cooperstown from Amsterdam which is the route they were on. If they stopped they would have taken a right and in a few miles gotten on I-88 West to Cooperstown. Probably headed to Ommegang Brewery
I think this is "before & after"...
That seems to make the most sense - Old car, in bad shape, substituted last minute to replace a bus that broke down. This limo service is about ready to be sued for tens of millions.
Model year 2001 vehicles in that part of New York state are little more than corrosion experiments.
When they stretch these vehicles out, it adds a lot of weight. Nothing but the best brake, suspension and steering parts should be used for maintaining and they must be very well maintained.
Sounds like they got one that needed a lot of work or needed to be retired.
I like to watch the South Main Auto youtube channel, guy's an auto mechanic in upstate NY, from what I understand NY has pretty strict laws requiring safety inspections...but many get away with getting rubber-stamp certificates from shops just looking to make a quick buck...without doing the actual inspection.
Late 90's GM's trucks/vans, notorious for peeling paint, rusted-out brake/fuel lines and blown intake manifold gaskets.
...been there, done that.
An article says most limos are problematic as they are stretched and life-saving features are permanently removed.
Supposedly that intersection had a history of problems.
The "Who, What, Where, When and Why" of journalism? Doesn't exist anymore. Nearly 100% of all news articles written today lack one or more of those elements.
Disgraceful that nearly two days later, we still don't have a decent article to rely on as to what happened.
That said, I do have my thoughts on this. Nearly 20 people crammed into a nearly 20-year-old limo? Crazy. I don't blame the passengers. They were renting a limo to have a good time and as they were headed to a place where there would be drinking, they probably thought they were being good citizens by eliminating any possibility of DUI.
Used to be limos were reasonably sized and intended for 4-6 passengers tops. In recent years, they have been stretched to ridiculous sizes where 20 or more can be accommodated. With that many people, you really need a bus with forward facing seats. A limo is just inappropriate for this many people unless custom-made for that purpose with all the necessary safety features. Stretching a limo to this size (with four regular car tires) is a recipe for disaster.
As others on this thread have pointed out, going from 60-0 (or even 40-0) mph is pretty much going to kill you if you are not restrained by seat belt or air bag. So I have no trouble believing that all passengers were instantly killed under these circumstances. It's very tragic and the operators of the limo were irresponsible in allowing this situation.
The original configuration, which is really piss poor horizontal roadway geometry, would have made it harder for a person to run the stop sign at a high rate of speed.
The new T-intersection is appropriate but they should have a 48” stop sign with flashing red beacons and ahead of that flashing yellow caution lights on the stop ahead signs. Also remove the 50mph speed limit sign. That last mile should be posted at 35mph but no greater than 40mph. That my piss some people off, but its better than being dead.
Still no word on the cause? Is the driver alive?
I grew up driving brakeless vehicles. I hauled oil rigs where the trucks had to depend on downshifting to stop, as when loaded the brakes simply did nothing. I drove a company pickup once where only the left front brake worked. Step on the brakes too hard and that wheel would grab and spin the truck around.
Where I am going with this, is what I’ve learned. That is to always drive like the brakes might fail. When approaching an intersection, start slowing down way before the actual need. On icy roads, where I know the brakes won’t work, I look ways to avoid a rear end collision, such as steering off the road. It’s called defensive driving.
One of my pet peeves is watching a car approach an intersection where they have to stop, and do not slow down or apply brakes until they absolutely have to. Younger people are most apt to do this. Whenever I see this happening, even if I have the right of way, I take my foot off the gas and put it on the brake pedal to decrease reaction time if they do not stop.
Two days ago I had a green light, yet a young man looked right at me, pulled his hood up, looked away from me and walked right out into the traffic. Being alert, I stopped for him. He had a very defiant look on his face, as he was one of those raised during the obama years to think of themselves as victims of racial hatred. I think this guy was willing to get hit just to prove his brainwashing to be true.
There is a descending grade warning sign posted at the top of the hill:
I'm a civil engineer who deals with this sort of thing all the time. I'll make a few initial observations here that shouldn't be construed as "engineering judgment" of any kind:
1. The roadway geometry doesn't appear to be a problem here.
2. If there have been multiple crashes at this location that follow a similar pattern, then it's likely an issue of driver error coupled with the stop control location at an intersection where the Route NY-30 designation is carried on intersecting roads instead of the "through" road. Motorists traveling westbound on NY-30 can either drive straight onto NY-30A or make a right turn and stay on NY-30. Motorists traveling southbound on NY-30 (the path of the limousine in this crash) must come to a stop and either turn right onto NY-30A or turn left to stay on NY-30. These roadway designations may be confusing to motorists who might expect NY-30 to always have an unconstrained "through" movement at a stop-controlled intersection like this.
3. Two possible improvements for the southbound NY-30 approach to this intersection would be: (A) add flashing yellow lights on the "stop sign ahead" sign that is several hundred yards ahead of the intersection; and (B) install a larger stop sign at the intersection and add flashing red warning lights to it.
All 18 limo occupants killed, presumably instantly.
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