Posted on 03/12/2009 7:47:44 AM PDT by Hillary'sMoralVoid
There are at least five ways that Barack Obama can be declared ineligible for the presidency. Here is a list:
1. Obama was not born in the United States. The Certification of Live Birth that he posts on his web site proves nothing. Only the original paper certificate can address this issue, Obama refuses to release it.
2. Dual Citizenship issue: Obama could have British and American citizenship due to his father being a British subject at the time of his birth.
3. Dual Citizenship issue: Obama could have dual citizenship with Indonesia if he was adopted. His school records from Inonesia indicate he was Indonesian. He also traveled to Pakistan, but under what passport?
4. Mother's age at birth. Hawaiian laws on the books at the time of his birth hold that U.S. citizenship may only pass to a child born overseas to a U.S. citizen parent and non-citizen parent if the former was at least 19. Stanley Ann Dunham was only 18 at the time of Obama's birth.
5. Failure to formally renounce dual citizenship described above and reestablish American citizenship at some point and show proof of same.
Obama supporters have unrealistically simplified this issue down to the COLB. There are possibly more issues out there still to be investigated, perhaps willful misconduct on the potential forging of the COLB, etc.
I think that those who are bringing this issue to the attention of the courts need to step back and address the big picture first and then fill in the details.
Are there other potentially disqualifying factors missing from this list?
Sure, but I was replying to a response from curiosity, not trying to state fact. (S)he made the claim that there were no standards between "some offices" in post 199, and I was playing back that line of reasoning to rebut the claim.
-PJ
That's precisely the point: there is no evidence that any reporter since August has asked to see a hard copy and was denied. Do you really think a reporter who asked and was denied would fail to mention that?
Where is that reporter who went to "Factcheck".org HQ to see Obama's COLB? Does "Factcheck" still have Obama's COLB in their possession?
Factcheck did not take it into its possession. Factcheck personnel (who are based in Philadelphia) traveled to Chicago to personally inspect the physical copy. They did not take it back with them.
As far as I know, no one else bothered to make the trip to Chicago, or even asked the campaign if they would mind showing it to them.
Okay, so it's possible the single state office that issues them changed the form at some point. I don't see why you think it's such a big deal.
Your conclusion doesn't follow from your premises. Factcheck people asked to see it and were allowed. Knowing that, why shouln't a curious WSJ or IBD reporter ask to see it if he were interested? It costs him nothing, and at the very least, he'd have an instant story if denied.
As to the court, why should he send a copy to the court unless the court asks for it? It's much easier to argue that a case needs to be dismissed due to lack of standing.
Let me ask you this: if you personally inspected a hard copy of the COLB, would it be enough to convince you he's a natural born citizen?
I suspect your answer is "no," and that is precisely why he hasn't done more beyond what he's already done to satisfy people like you.
I answered that question in post 220.
Do you really think a reporter who asked and was denied would fail to mention that?
They haven't asked because they think they know the answer, which would be NO. See post 220.
Factcheck did not take it into its possession. Factcheck personnel (who are based in Philadelphia) traveled to Chicago to personally inspect the physical copy. They did not take it back with them.
Obama should have left it with them and order 100s more for every news organization on the planet, and authorized Hawaii to send his COLBs directly to all requesters.
See post 212 and below:
" The nature of the question stays the same. Has any reporter seen the Obama COLB in person before or after "FactCheck".org posted it online no matter where the dubious COLB is located? And no, DailyKommie.com (DailyKOS) doesn't count.
Answer: no reporter has seen it in person. "
However, I do think it is a big deal if a state has a lax procedure for securing its official documents, including layouts, formats, etc. They need a better change control process if new terminology can make its way to a form without being defined somewhere for reference, otherwise, what are the recipients to make of it? How is a registrar in another state (or someone utilizing the document as evidence supposed to interpret the same form with different wordings, without a reference to guide them?
-PJ
In December, Keyes included a statement from a document expert that "any image offered on the internet cannot be relied upon as being a copy of the authentic document." So, since both Keyes and Berg maintain that the "image" of the document is counterfeit/manipulated/edited why didn't they settle at least that aspect of the case by asking Obama to allow a document expert to examine the document itself, in person?
If Obama had refused, that certainly would have created negative headlines for him, wouldn't it?
All along, it seems to me, there's been two issues here: the authenticity of the COLB image posted, and a request to produce the original Birth Certificate. Why not settle the first possibility, since, if the image was counterfeit, so would be the document that FactCheck photographed.
There's a name for what you're doing: it's called making a mountain out of a molehill.
To any reasonable person, the interpretation of "date accepted" and "date filed" is perfectly obvious and the difference without subtance.
I seriously doubt anyone outside the birther movement cares about the discrepancy.
Actually, what it is is spinning you around in this debate. This whole thing is about what the COLB looks like, what embossing stamp was used in nwhat year, what hatchmark on the borders were used in what year, what the fonts look like when scanned vs. computer generated, etc. Hawaii varied these things over the years. The question was whether the document was a mix-and-match of things that were anachronistic for the period they claimed to be from.
I don't know the answers, I'm just repeating the questions. That's why the difference is important. In what year did Hawaii make the switch? What embossing stamp did they use that year? What did the border weave look like that year? Are they consistent? That's the question the "birther movement" was asking when they didn't have access to the physical document. So now only one organization (not a news or journalism org, but a "check the checkers" org) got access to it and took some photos. And that's supposed to settle it for everyone else?
-PJ
"Your conclusion doesn't follow from your premises."
No, it does follow - it's the logical inference.
Obama has reported that everything on his COLB is truthful and correct where he has put online at his official website "Fight The Smears". Therefore, his stonewalling for not giving out his COLB paper copy to the news media or anyone else, one can logically conclude he is not telling the truth and the "Factcheck" Obama COLB is indeed a forgery. All other excuses for not doing so are lame at best.
But why didn't any of the attorneys filing suit ask to examine the physical document? If Obama had denied access, it certainly would have caused at least an internet storm.
Again, you would have a point if someone since August 2008 requested it and was denied. However, that has not happened.
The best I can say is that their cases weren't based on the authenticity of the COLB. They were arguing either dual citizenship, or lack of oversight of credentials, or failure to prove qualifications. Autheniticity of the COLB may have been in the original Berg case, but I think was amended at some point.
Since none of the cases moved past the Standing test, Discovery never happened. Examining the physical document would be a part of the Discovery process.
But I'm not a lawyer, I only watch them on FR.
-PJ
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