Posted on 09/12/2005 5:06:39 PM PDT by bummerdude
One of the most important battles of the 17th century was the Battle of Vienna, which was fought on September 12, 1683... This victory freed Europe from the Ottoman Turks and their invasions and secured Christianity as the main religion in all of Europe.
(Excerpt) Read more at campus.northpark.edu ...
The surname Sobieski is known since 1470-1480. The first record about this surname mentions Nicolaus Szobyeszky (it means Sobieski in old Polish spelling) de armis Janyna (with Coat of Arms Janina). The most famous person of this surname, John III Sobieski (1629-1696), was Polish king.And I got this from your link:The surname Sobieski is popular in contemporary Poland - there are 2281 Sobieskis, most of them in the voivodships of: Warsaw (325), Ostroleka (259), Olsztyn (134), Wroclaw (124), Gdansk (106), Lomza (104), Szczecin (96), Katowice (95), Siedice (82).
This surname information was obtained from;
Wanda Makula Kosek
INSTYTUT JEZYKA POLSKIEGO PAN
AL.MICKIEWICZA 31
31-120 KRAKOW
POLAND
Liliane Rudabet Gloria Elsveta Sobieski (born June 10, 1982 in New York City), better known as Leelee (or LeeLee) Sobieski, is an American actress, born to a French-born father of somewhat royal Polish ancestry, and a half-Jewish American mother.
Somewhat royal? So is he related to King Sobieski? Funny, they didn't have any more information about the father. I guess we need more info, huh?
But looky here... let's see what one of King Sobieski's descendants say... did I just say descendant?
Now I got some work to do.
Ciao.
We will never find anything reliable to confirm her claims. Only skilled historians of Poland are able to do that. I think that if she claiming something then she should also provide some proofs to confirm her version.
There was no such thing as a Sobieski "dynasty" since Sobieski, like his predecessor and successor were elected monarchs. Yes, he had children, but they did not succeed. August Wettin, the Elector of Saxony was elected to the Polish throne after Sobieski's death.
Leelee should go to all those talk shows like the one I posted on post #106 and wave whatever papers she needs to confirm her claims, lol. Or post them on her website - I'm sure there would be quite a few malcontents claiming that her papers were nothing but fake.
So yeah, I agree with your assertion that skilled Polish historians are better able to do the job. However, when someone makes a charge in a public forum, that person should back up his/her charges with evidence. It's not for me or anyone else besides the accuser to prove allegations we never made but only he/she made. By checking out your link yesterday and a few links of my own, I found out that Leelee's parents weren't poor Polish immigrants as the accuser in this case kept posting about. Her father was born in France (royal Polish ancestry according to your own link) and a half-Jewish American mother -- American mother not Polish.
The moral of this story is... when we accuse someone, we'd better be ready to back it up with credible evidence.
Good post.
Georg W.Bush is my uncle.
He was a great man!
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The 325th anniversary is coming up, and this topic is from three years ago. Pinging it anyway. |
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Hilaire Belloc passed away a few decades too soon to have commented on 9-11 I imagine.
Tim Powers wrote an interesting fantasy novel based on this incident: THE DRAWING OF THE DARK. Well worth a read!
Not all of the way.
There are plenty of "Tartari" in the Crimea. Most are fine, some are a pain in the Ukrainian's behind.
Bagels and a Cup of Coffee
The German word Bügel means stirrup. It can also mean clothes hanger or it can refer to ironing, as in: "Ich bügel”, i.e. “I iron” (my clothes).
Because the American language does not include the “ü” sound, the word Bügel is here pronounced bagel.
The first bagel was baked by a Jewish baker in Vienna, Austria in 1683. He did so in honor of the Polish king Jan Sobieski, who is credited with contributing the pivotal strategy leading to the defeat of the Turks at the Battle of Vienna on September 12, 1683. No doubt that battle marked the final turning point in a 250 year fight between Christians and Muslims over the fate of Europe.
It will be remembered that the Turks overran Constantinople in 1453 after a 100 year campaign to achieve that goal. The Turkish sultan Mehmet II renamed the city Istanbul, a name it has retained to this day. Prior to 1453, the Turks had already defeated the Serbs at the Battle of Kosovo in 1389. Their victory over the Christians in 1453 led the Turks to occupy most of the Balkans, so they were able to besiege Vienna for the first time in 1529. Having failed to occupy Vienna that time, they tried again and again and finally were within sight of Austria's capital in 1683. There they were met by an Austrian and German army of 100,000 troops. The commander of the Turks, Pasha Kara Mustafa, commanded an army of 140,000 men. The battle between the German forces and the Turks seesawed all day until the Polish king Sobieski arrived with a heavy cavalry force of 20,000 men and charged the Turks downhill. The Turks lost about 15,000 men in the fighting. One of the principal reasons for the Turkish loss was the failure of their cavalry to use the stirrup, which the Polish cavalry was using. Obviously, a man using a stirrup has a better chance of remaining on his horse than someone without a stirrup.
It is surprising that the Turks did not use the stirrup, which had been introduced into Europe as early as the eighth century when the Christian Franks defeated the Muslims at the Battle of Tours in 732. The Franks won and prevented the expansion of Islam into France because their knights were using the stirrup and the Muslims were not.
Now you can see why the Jewish baker in Vienna baked the “bügel” bagel in honor of the Polish king.
If you're drinking a cup of coffee with your bagel, understand that you owe the coffee to the Battle of Vienna as well. When the Turks lost the battle and ran from the scene they left behind numerous bags of hard brown beans which had not been seen in Europe before. The Austrians did not know what to make of these beans until Turkish prisoners told them that the beans could be cooked to make what the Turks called khafir.
Khafir is the Arabic word for unbeliever or infidel. The Arabs first found coffee among the Zulus of southeast Africa with whom they traded. They called the people Zulu Khafirs and hence the word coffee, which passed into the Turkish language first and from there into all other European languages. Remember that Turkish is an Indo-European language and is in no way related to Arabic, which is a Semitic language related to Hebrew.
From here.
If memory serves, I believe that the last great cavalry battle took place in the 1920s between the Poles and the Bolsheviks.
When it wasn’t the Turks, the French were flirting with Russia. I guess the French thought that they could do a deal with the East (at the expense of Central Europe) & somehow hold the line at the Rhine.
And all Europe would have been Arabic and Moslem in a hundred more years or fifty.
The Battle of Vienna is very relevant to today. This began the slow reconquest of the Turkish Empire that eventually led to Christian Europe coming back almost to the gates of Constantinople in the early 20th Century. The subsequent disintegration of the rest of the Turkish Empire in the Middle East led to the instability we are still sorting out in an area that had not known self-government for four centuries.
IMHO, if you want to understand the Muslim world today, start by understanding its four centuries of decline.
I’ll look that up. Thanks.
You’re welcome.
I bet you didn’t know this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bagel
An oft-repeated story states that both the bagel as well as the croissant originated in 1683 in Vienna, Austria, when an Austrian baker created them to commemorate the victory in the Battle of Vienna over the Turks that besieged the city. Similar to the crescent-like bend croissant (Hörnchen in German, little horn) which is said to have been inspired by the Turkish flags, the bagel is supposedly related to the victorious final cavalry charge led by King John III Sobieski of Poland. Thus, the baked good was fashioned in the form of a stirrup (German: Steigbügel, or the similar Bügel-shaped horseshoe, or saddle, tales vary).
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