Posted on 04/18/2022 3:22:23 AM PDT by GonzoII
First images have emerged appearing to show Russian Black Sea flagship Moskva on fire shortly before it sank Pictures show the ship billowing smoke, sitting low in the water, listing to port with damage on its left side Images are consistent with Ukrainian claims that they shot it with two missiles before it rolled and sank, and seem to contradict Russian accounts that the vessel went down in rough seas Came as conscripts who survived the sinking gave first accounts to their families of horrors suffered on board....
(Excerpt) Read more at dailymail.co.uk ...
“If you think opposing Putin is the agenda only of Biden there’s not much I can do for you.”
Correct. This is their logic (taken out of context):
Clinton liked pretty women.
Well, I like pretty women, too.
Ergo, I must be a Clinton supporter!
One does not have to be a Democrat to recognize Putin is behind much of the evil in the world. He’s aligned with Iran, China, North Korea, Venezuela, Cuba, etc.
Putin invaded another country. A developing country with lots of problems. Just like every other developing country.
That doesn’t make it OK to invade.
I’ll wait. (I’ll give you a hint: never have. That’s a straw man created by Putinistas.)
Spare me - in my post #34, I stated quite clearly:
"I do not believe the US has treaty obligations or vital interests in Ukraine; I therefore do not believe we should get involved militarily, and consequently risk nuclear war with Russia."
Do you see "Jewbacca" or "you" mentioned anywhere in my statement? "I'll wait" while you double check. (I’ll give you a hint: it's your post #36 that’s the straw man! ;>)
Oh, and thanks for throwing another insult ("Putinista") - it's definitely repetitive and lacking in originality, but might distract some readers from your less-than-rational approach to discussion...
Putinistas? Putin is a dictator. Russia has never known any thing else. Ukraine is a kleptocracy. The dispute between Russia and the Ukraine has been going on for some time, primarily over language rights of Russian speaking regions of Ukraine and Ukrainian alliance with NATO. As far as I am concerned, a pox on both their houses. We have been repeated lied to by our government and media about everything else, why should I believe what I’m told about the Ukraine situation. Does that make me a “Pudinista?”
So you’re cool with Russia invading?
Happy Ukrainians are getting killed?
Think Russia is the great defender of western civilization, battling Nazis?
Regurgitate lies about great Russian military victories?
Because that’s what the Putinistas repeatedly post.
If those are not your positions, then you’re just a silly person who stepped in the middle of a disagreement.
Gen. George Patton was highly criticized after he proclaimed about taking out “those Russian bastards”.
And if you think wanting to keep American military personnel out of Ukraine, making Ukraine pay full list price for US weapons (because we've already got $30 TRILLION in debt), and avoiding an intentional or accidental nuclear war "is the agenda only of" Putin, "there’s not much I can do for you."
(Except recommend that you back off the insults - it makes you look like you're 15 years old, posting on your mom's computer... ;>)
Strawman
Happy Ukrainians are getting killed?
Strawman
Think Russia is the great defender of western civilization, battling Nazis?
Strawman
Regurgitate lies about great Russian military victories?
Strawman
Because that’s what the Putinistas repeatedly post. If those are not your positions, then you’re just a silly person who stepped in the middle of a disagreement.
And quite obviously, "you're just a silly person" who labels anyone who disagrees with you a "Putinista" - which is apparently the new Biden/Democrat strategy for salvaging the 2022 elections. Congratulations!
;>)
Not one of those is a straw man. I’ve seen them myself on FR. Over-and-over.
If they are not your positions, it seems like you are getting your panties in a wad for no reason.
These must be the critic’s kids.
Guesstimating from the reporting from this article (a risky business as the Guardian’s sources are questionable), the immediate loss of life may be lower than first guesses.
The russians displayed 150 - 250 “survivors.” It is possible every man in that formation was a survivor of the moskva sinking. But it is also possible that little vlad slipped a few extras in, too.
The article quotes a witness as saying there were 200 wounded. But who knows how accurate that count is?
The general consensus seems to be that the ship had a crew of a little over 500. Let’s call it 510.
From these (very shaky numbers), about 60 - 160 men immediately lost their lives.
But 200 “badly wounded” men could result easily in many score more deaths, especially if most of them have very serious burns, as recovery from very severe burns is dicey, and requires the highest standards of care.
Assuming a little deception on little vlad’s part
(slipping in 100 or more extras to the display of “survivors), and assuming a little pessimism on the fate of the wounded, the final count could be 400+.
Needless to say, total loss of life was catastrophically tragic.
For me, contemplating this unnecessary tragedy, all I can do is pray.
Eternal rest grant unto them, O Lord,
and let Your perpetual light shine upon them.
May their souls and the souls of all the faithful departed
rest in peace.
Amen.
Well, I have seen posts supporting the proposed "no-fly zone", as well as US military personnel training the Ukraine military (inside Ukraine), and shipment of free hardware from US military inventory (not the manufacturer) into Ukraine, and suggestions that some "Ukrainian drones" may already have American operators. Heck, there was even a Freeper who apparently has experience building nuclear munitions for Uncle Sam, who offered to build "suitcase nukes" for Ukraine (in direct violation of the Non-Proliferation Treaty).
But maybe you don't think any of those activities qualify as "military action", or would be viewed as such by the Russians. Might be a few clueless people around other folks homes, also...
;>)
You have not seen me support a single one of those positions, and I do not in fact support a single one. The post was addressed to me, and no one else. Each one was therefore a strawman argument, as written.
If they are not your positions...
...then they are strawman arguments, just as I stated.
...it seems like you are getting your panties in a wad for no reason.
Or more likely, there's some 'wadded-up panties' in west Texas...
;>)
Well, if those are not your positions, then it seems you are not a Putanista and merely very, very, stupid.
That’s news to me.
That is involvement. I doubt Ukraine could have located the ship without US or NATO help.
Thanks for the info. :)
The Ukrainians lured the ship relatively close to shore by getting the ship to try to target a high value aircraft.
The Neptune missiles are to defend a port.
They stationed them in the middle of no where — where there is nothing logical to defend — and surprised the Russians.
Since the Stark and the Falklands, it has been demonstrated that sea skimmers have a high PK and ship board defensive systems are questionable in their effectiveness. Granted, in the case of Stark, CWIS was down but it is just topside weight unless it is available and effective.
I sincerely hope that our side is evaluating countermeasures because you can damn sure bet the chicoms are looking and the results.
Why, thank you for proving my point (that you seem to insult people with whom you disagree, to distract them from your weak arguments)! I'll make the same friendly recommendation that I offered your compatriot, babble-on: you might want to cut back on the insults, because it makes you look like a teenager who's using one of your parents' computers for internet access...
;>)
Works in theory...
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