Posted on 09/08/2009 6:43:09 PM PDT by Blood of Tyrants
Okay, assume Obama is determined to be ineligible to be the president due to him not being a natural born citizen of the United States. That would mean that neither he nor Biden would be eligible since he was elected under false pretenses.
It is quite possible that Pelosi will be facing charges up to treason for her part in this mess.
Byrd is physically unable to take the office.
And the rest of the Cabinet were appointed by Obama and would equally be ineligible as all of his appointments were unconstitutional.
My guess is that if this goes down, Pelosi resigns or is removed as Speaker of the House and we end up with another Rat.
However, the argument may also be made that since the elections results are null, the people who voted for Obama were duped and deserve another chance. There is no constitutional provision for what to do if a usurper were to manage to lie and connive his way into office because the founding fathers could never envision such a scenario.
So, what happens?
“The 12th Amendment requires that the winner have a majority of the electoral votes. McCain got around a third. No way he can be awarded the election.”
Yeah, but, if the “winning ticket” was fraudulent, then the winner should be the one who has the “majority” of the remaining electoral votes . . . hence, McCain.
....
Due to the Epic Fail of the US Electoral process, Her Majesty Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God, of Great Britain, Ireland and the British Dominions beyond the Seas Queen, appoints a Governor-General to the American Colonies not administered by the Dominion of Canada.
“The 12th Amendment requires that the winner have a majority of the electoral votes. McCain got around a third. No way he can be awarded the election.”
Yeah, but, if the “winning ticket” was fraudulent, then the winner should be the one who has the “majority” of the remaining electoral votes . . . hence, McCain.
***
Close - but no cigar ...
With no majority, it would devolve to the House to choose. However, they can only choose from the top three on the list (the list only had two - McCain and Obama). Since Obama would be DQ’d, the list would only be one - McCain. Hence McCain.
You had the right outcome - wrong process ...
See my post #75 ...
That is exactly it, it isn’t a matter of “choice”; because despite your protestations otherwise this is not ‘make it up as you go along land’; this is the United States of America and we follow the Constitution - there is no “choice” and no scenario wherein an officer of the executive branch of a former administration is part of the succession.
Unfortunately the votes for President and VP are separate, under the 12th amendment. So you'd have to legally "take out" Biden separately. Meanwhile he would be *acting* President. See amendment XX.
You might have an argument in those states which require the electors to vote as pledged. But otherwise the votes for President and Vice President are technically separate.
The system as it has evolved is not what was planned. Electors were to be elected *before* there were any candidates to be pledged to. The electors were the ones who needed to be wooed, not the voters.
What we have now is an excess of democracy, something greatly feared by the founding fathers. That is the reason for the electoral college, with electors, rather than what we have in effect now, with the people voting directly for the candidates, and the electors only figure heads, in most states not even free to use their own judgment, and in most cases with their names not even known to the voters who technically vote for them. The way it was supposed to work was that the electors would be known to the voters, or the state legislators (the Constitution leaves picking the electors up to the states, only specifying how many each state shall have) who would select them. That's the same reason, or part of it, that they had the states' legislatures select Senators, rather than the people of the states directly.
I think your “VERY respected attorney” is wrong. There’s no basis for applying the “Fruit of the Poisonous Tree” doctrine to the Presidential election.
Consider this example: John Smith runs for the Presidency. An opponent digs up Smith’s criminal conviction for embezzlement 20 years earlier. Smith says, no, that was a different John Smith. Further research appears to bear him out, and the media turn on his accuser. Smith, buoyed by the whole incident, wins the election.
Eight months after he’s inaugurated, it’s discovered that he really was the John Smith who was convicted. His operatives had succeeded in planting false documentation that fooled everyone during the campaign. Smith admits the fakery but refuses to resign. What result?
The answer is that there’s no Constitutional basis for a court to remove the President under a “Fruit of the Poisonous Tree” theory, or any similar argument that, but for a fraud, he wouldn’t have been elected. Impeachment would be the only recourse.
There’s no basis for impugning Biden’s election. He’d become President. Congress could impeach him, but then the normal succession rules would apply; there’s no Constitutional justification for holding a special election.
How can someone not Constitutionally eligible to the office of President, assuming that to be the case, BE President? It's logically impossible.
An interesting one at any rate... The suit was filed BEFORE the election, so technically the DOJ has nu business in the case .... and no ability to move for a dismissal.
Oopsie.
Small problem for the defense there. Also given that the suit was filed BEFORE the election it may completely invalidate the election. Which would be a big headache. If Obama Resigns BEFORE the trial, assuming discovery goes forward on Oct 5th, then likely it would be Biden at least for the inter-rum. Great news in that is Valerie Jarret will be out on her ass along with Bombi! WOO HOO!
Indeed, and the most likely is:
We do nothing of the kind. We choose a slate of electors who are pledged to one party ticket or another. The method of choosing those electors is left by the Constitution to the several states. The electors, under the 12th amendment, cast one ballot for president and another for vice president.
There is nothing in the constitution requiring electors to vote party-line for the president and VP -- or, for that matter, to vote the way they said they would on either ballot. There are state laws to punish "faithless electors," but those have never been tested.
Your assumption that Biden would be ineligible is gratuitous.
He many not DESERVE to ascend to the Presidency, but that’s the same thing as ineligibility.
Of course, having run on the same ticket as an illegal alien, Biden might have some ‘splainin’ to do.
Here’s an entirely separate question: As runner-up in the election, what would McCain’s status be? Who would actually be next in line for the Presidency—Biden, because he is V.P.? Or McCain, because he was cheated out of the office?
Since the Kenyan got the most electoral votes (and not Biden), I should think that those votes would be thrown out and McCain/Biden would step in. I can’t see succession withint a fraudulent ticket.
Unfortunately the votes for President and VP are separate, under the 12th amendment. So you’d have to legally “take out” Biden separately. Meanwhile he would be *acting* President. See amendment XX.
***
This is why the whole thing is screwy ...
Obama/Biden had 538 individual elector candidates that were pledged to them as a ticket ...
McCain/Palin had THEIR OWN 538 individual elector candidates that were pledged to them as a ticket.
That was a total of 1076 POTENTIAL electors vying for 538 slots in the Electoral College.
As it turns out, 365 Obama electors were selected and 173 McCain electors were selected.
The final tally was 365-173 for Obama.
Those SAME electors voted 365-173 for Biden.
Now, let us assume that Obama is found to be ineligible, for the sake of argument.
If you throw out Obama’s electoral votes due to ineligibility, do you keep Biden’s votes ???
Maybe, maybe not ...
Since the voters in each state voted a ticket, who is to say if a voter would have picked someone else running at the top of the ticket with Biden say Hillary/Biden) or if the voter would have picked Biden running at the top of the ticket with someone else as the VEEP ???
No one can be sure - therefore the Obama/Biden ticket is tainted for BOTH slots. Obama by ineligibility and Biden as a casualty of the “Fruit of the Poisonous Tree” doctrine.
You also cannot allow someone to assume the office of POTUS under the 25th Amendment by way of fraud ...
So, what do you do ??? There are 3 ways to resolve this issue.
1. You can replace the DQ’d Obama electors with the McCain electors who weren’t picked - it would assure 538-0 McCain as POTUS. This is not in the Constitution.
OR:
You could throw out the Obama elector’s votes (365) and have the election decided by the remaining votes for POTUS, but this would assure 173-0 for McCain. This is also not in the Constitution.
Now, since those DQ’d Obama electors were ALSO Biden electors, do you allow them to vote for VEEP? You cannot be sure since his election at the state level is tainted.
If those DQ’d electors were allowed to vote for VEEP, Biden would win 365-173.
But, what about Palin ???
It could be claimed that since Biden’s electors were tainted, their votes should also not count for VEEP. In this case, it would either be 538-0 or 173-0 for Palin as described for McCain, above. This is also not in the Constitution.
OR:
2. You can have a do-over election, but this is also not in the Constitution.
OR:
3. You can invoke the 12th Amendment and declare that the Electoral College DID NOT choose POTUS or the VEEP.
The selection for POTUS would devolve to the House. They would be limited to a choice of up to 3 from the list voted for by the Electoral College. But there were only 2 voted for and, since Obama was DQ’d, they would have a choice of 1 (McCain). The House votes as States, so McCain would need 26 votes to be elected (which he would probably get).
The selection for VEEP would devolve to the Senate. They would be limited to a choice of up to 2 from the list voted for by the Electoral College. This would be Biden and Palin. The Senate votes individually, so 51 votes would be needed for election.
Given the current make-up of the Senate, Biden would in all probability win.
So, there you have it ... McCain/Biden ...
FYI:
If the voters in each State voted separately for POTUS and VEEP, NONE of these 3 remedies would be even remotely applicable, since Biden would assume the Presidency under the 25th Amendment *
* This is assuming that McCain did not challenge in the Supreme Court. If he did, remedy #3 would likely apply.
You voted for electors who are more or less committed to voting for a ticket.
But the Electoral College holds two elections, and it is the Electoral College votes that the Senate counts.
The amendment reads the majority of votes cast. Nothing in it about legitimate candidates, and there is nothing disqualifying votes. If memory serves there was at least one losing presidential candidate and one vice-presidential candidate who died after the election but before the Electoral College met. Those votes weren't disqualified. The fact of the matter is that we could have 278 votes cast for Mickey Mouse and he would win the election. He couldn't serve of course, being a cartoon and all, so then the presidential succession would kick in.
We've had dead men elected to the Senate in recent times. Nobody went and said, "All those votes didn't count because he was ineligible." The law doesn't allow for it. McCain got about one-third of the electoral votes cast. He cannot be named the winner under any circumstances supported by the Constitution.
Thank YOU, el Gato, for making my point so eloquently.
It is NOT logically impossible; it merely ‘is’.
So, deal with it. You are NOT, yet, in that mode so long as this — or anything like it — is your argument.
Why it is so is the basis for some appropriate re-tooling of the system which was so brilliantly ‘gamed’ by their side while we stood by, more or less helplessly complaining ‘But ... But ... it’s not supposed to BE that way !’
In reality, it WAS and IS that way. They won. He’s got the office. And no amount of fantasizing and / or wish-fulfillment thinking is going to change that reality.
Going forward, we might profitably spend our efforts on fixing the flaws that produced this outcome. ‘Wishing it away’ just ain’t gonna cut it ...
One man’s opinion ...
21stCenturion
Of course, you're right. I wasn't thinking clearly.
McCain can’t become president. He was born in the Republic of Panaman.
Also, by Panamanian law, he is a Panamanian citizen.
Panaman = Panama
Only if you accept the definition of natural-born citizen as one born in the U.S. of two U.S. citizen parents. That's not an established fact, and there is a lot of arguements against it.
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