Posted on 11/30/2020 6:25:03 AM PST by CharlesOConnell
During the first 1,500 years of Christianity, Mary was regarded as the peer of Enoch, Elijah and, according to a Jewish targum (a biblical commentary), Moses, by God taking her bodily up into heaven. (Orthodox and Catholics allow that she may have just newly died during the Assumption, calling her death “falling asleep”.) In two-thirds of the Christian tradition, across the Orthodox and Catholic world, Mary is regarded as having been specially privileged, called Theotokos, God-bearer. In order that the birth of Jesus would be in a fitting vessel, Catholics believe Mary was also the peer of Eve prior to her eating the forbidden fruit, in that she was preserved from sin during her conception, so that “macula non est in te” (“there is no stain in you”, Song of Songs, verse 4:7). There is no sin in her. Most Christians are saved by the death of Christ after their sins; Mary was saved before sinning. This is called The Immaculate Conception.
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http://www.celebrationarts.net/images/_alpha/O-Purest-Of-Creatures-Sweet-Star-Of-The-Sea.mp3
Fr. Frederick William Faber, (1814-1863) | St. Denio |
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1. O purest of creatures, sweet Mother! sweet Maid! The one spotless womb wherein Jesus was laid! Dark night hath come down on us, Mother! And we, Look out for thy shining, sweet Star of the Sea! | 2. Deep night has come down on this rough-spoken world, &-the banners of darkness are boldly unfurled; &-the tempest tossed Church— all her eyes are on thee, They look to thy shining, sweet Star of the Sea! |
3. He gazed on thy soul; it was spotless and fair; For-the empire of sin—it had never been there; None had ever owned thee, dear Mother! But He, And-He blessed thy clear shining, sweet Star of the Sea! | 4. Earth gave Him one lodging; ‘twas deep in thy breast, And God found a home where the sinner finds rest; His home and His hiding place both were in thee, He-was won by thy shining, sweet Star of the Sea. |
5. O blissful and calm was the wonderful rest, That-thou gavest thy God in thy virginal breast; For-the heaven He left, He found heaven in thee, And-He shone in thy shining, sweet Star of the Sea! | 6. To sinners what comfort, to angels what mirth, That God found one creature un- fallen on earth, One spot where His Spirit, un- troubled could be, The depth of thy shining, sweet Star of the Sea! |
7. O shine on us brighter than even, then shine, For-the highest of honours, dear Mother! Is thine; “Conceived without sin,” thy chaste title e’re be, Clear light from thy birth-spring, sweet Star of the Sea! | 8. So worship we God in these rude latter days; So worship we Jesus our Love, when we praise, His wonderful grace in the gifts He gave thee, The gift of clear shining, sweet Star of the Sea! |
9. Deep night hath come down on us, Mother! Deep night, And-we need more than ever the guide of thy light; For-the darker the night is the brighter should be, Thy beautiful shining, sweet Star of the Sea! | Amen. |
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http://www.celebrationarts.net/images/_alpha/ImmaculateMary.mp3
Since Catholics usually come up with that perverted rationalization, do you all really think that she had sex with God?
No person was sinless but Jesus.
Mary didn’t need to be sinless to bear Christ.
Mary cooperated but that is not giving her permission since God didn’t ask her.
Don’t pray to dead humans!
Indeed, she had the taint of original sin by virtue of the fact that she was born of the line of Adam and Eve. Otherwise, she would have been suitable as a perfect, sinless sacrifice on the cross.
Metmom, I’m astonished that you appear to be doubling down on this.
The idea that God would force Mary to bear His child against her will is obscene. But is this in fact what you saying? Or just a misunderstanding?
Let us all remember Mary’s ‘fiat’ - her expressed permission, which is right there in scripture.
The Ark of the Covenant was covered in gold and elaborately sanctified in order to carry the presence of God.
How much more would She who literally carried the Incarnate Christ in her womb need to be sanctified, set apart, sacred and holy?
Well, good advice there.
But the Saints are alive in Christ: far more alive than we can currently understand.
Remember that to pray is simply - to ask. "I pray thee" means the same as "Please".
If I can ask my friend Gary for help with my car, why can't I ask Mary to pray for me and my family?
Lastly: the prayers of the Saints are so important that they get a specific mention in the Apocalypse.
Still averting our gaze from Mary’s permission I see. Why is that?
God’s messenger was not in doubt. Because God was not in doubt.
God who sent Gabriel knew what Mary’s reaction would be. Because He is God.
But that doesn’t mean that Mary didn’t have a choice. Otherwise: why did she give her permission?
But her sinless status is ultimately derived from her Son's sacrifice on the cross.
In any case: this is irrelevant. Let us for a moment imagine a strange reality where Mary is sacrificed on the cross, and her Son is not.
Her sacrifice does nothing. Not because of any question of sinlessness, but because she is not the Incarnate Deity, Second Person of the Trinity.
The Roman Catholic Church began to decline when Mary was declared Theotokos. Mary did not bear God the Father.? She bore Jesus Christ (2nd Member of the Holy Trinity). She is Christotokos. This Roman error led to other errors like Immaculate Conception, Mary as co-redeemer, and Mary prayer...
You seem to be agreeing with me: that Mary did indeed have a free choice whether or not to be the Mother of God. Would that be a fair summary?
No. God knew her choice ahead of time. God knew she would obey when told she was going to have a Son. Mary was the mother of Jesus. She was never born sinless. She sinned. She needed Jesus as her Savior. Plus the term "Mother of God" is blasphemy.
No-one on earth believes that Mary bore God the Father.
The Holy Trinity is three Persons and one God.
Mary bore Christ: the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, who is True God and True Man.
She is certainly Theotokos - or else Christ is not God.
God does indeed know what we will choose ahead of time.
However He cannot know what we will choose, if we are not given a choice.
On the terms presented by Gabriel? None, without the divine assistance of the Immaculate Conception.
So you are saying that the human nature Jesus received from his mother had been under the dominion of sin? His human soul was troubled by original sin, and that he was therefore unable to give full and free assent to the Father’s will? In other words, the Atonement is a fraud?
If Jesus were not God, then you would be correct.
However - He IS God. He is True God and True Man. He is the Second Person of the Holy Trinity who became a man for our sakes. This is why Christmas is such a big deal.
FR is a big place, and there are many FReepers who are not yet Christians. There's no shame in it.
I pray that Jesus the infant christ-child will touch both of our hearts during this Christmas season.
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