Posted on 11/30/2020 6:25:03 AM PST by CharlesOConnell
Since Catholics usually come up with that perverted rationalization, do you all really think that she had sex with God?
No person was sinless but Jesus.
Mary didn’t need to be sinless to bear Christ.
Mary cooperated but that is not giving her permission since God didn’t ask her.
Don’t pray to dead humans!
Indeed, she had the taint of original sin by virtue of the fact that she was born of the line of Adam and Eve. Otherwise, she would have been suitable as a perfect, sinless sacrifice on the cross.
Metmom, I’m astonished that you appear to be doubling down on this.
The idea that God would force Mary to bear His child against her will is obscene. But is this in fact what you saying? Or just a misunderstanding?
Let us all remember Mary’s ‘fiat’ - her expressed permission, which is right there in scripture.
The Ark of the Covenant was covered in gold and elaborately sanctified in order to carry the presence of God.
How much more would She who literally carried the Incarnate Christ in her womb need to be sanctified, set apart, sacred and holy?
Well, good advice there.
But the Saints are alive in Christ: far more alive than we can currently understand.
Remember that to pray is simply - to ask. "I pray thee" means the same as "Please".
If I can ask my friend Gary for help with my car, why can't I ask Mary to pray for me and my family?
Lastly: the prayers of the Saints are so important that they get a specific mention in the Apocalypse.
Still averting our gaze from Mary’s permission I see. Why is that?
God’s messenger was not in doubt. Because God was not in doubt.
God who sent Gabriel knew what Mary’s reaction would be. Because He is God.
But that doesn’t mean that Mary didn’t have a choice. Otherwise: why did she give her permission?
But her sinless status is ultimately derived from her Son's sacrifice on the cross.
In any case: this is irrelevant. Let us for a moment imagine a strange reality where Mary is sacrificed on the cross, and her Son is not.
Her sacrifice does nothing. Not because of any question of sinlessness, but because she is not the Incarnate Deity, Second Person of the Trinity.
The Roman Catholic Church began to decline when Mary was declared Theotokos. Mary did not bear God the Father.? She bore Jesus Christ (2nd Member of the Holy Trinity). She is Christotokos. This Roman error led to other errors like Immaculate Conception, Mary as co-redeemer, and Mary prayer...
You seem to be agreeing with me: that Mary did indeed have a free choice whether or not to be the Mother of God. Would that be a fair summary?
No. God knew her choice ahead of time. God knew she would obey when told she was going to have a Son. Mary was the mother of Jesus. She was never born sinless. She sinned. She needed Jesus as her Savior. Plus the term "Mother of God" is blasphemy.
No-one on earth believes that Mary bore God the Father.
The Holy Trinity is three Persons and one God.
Mary bore Christ: the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, who is True God and True Man.
She is certainly Theotokos - or else Christ is not God.
God does indeed know what we will choose ahead of time.
However He cannot know what we will choose, if we are not given a choice.
On the terms presented by Gabriel? None, without the divine assistance of the Immaculate Conception.
So you are saying that the human nature Jesus received from his mother had been under the dominion of sin? His human soul was troubled by original sin, and that he was therefore unable to give full and free assent to the Father’s will? In other words, the Atonement is a fraud?
If Jesus were not God, then you would be correct.
However - He IS God. He is True God and True Man. He is the Second Person of the Holy Trinity who became a man for our sakes. This is why Christmas is such a big deal.
FR is a big place, and there are many FReepers who are not yet Christians. There's no shame in it.
I pray that Jesus the infant christ-child will touch both of our hearts during this Christmas season.
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