Posted on 03/31/2014 10:24:31 PM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet
INTRODUCTION
On May 27, 1861, the army of the United States of America (the "Union")--a nation formed by consecutive secessions, first from Great Britain in 1776, and then from itself in 17881--invaded the State of Virginia,2 which had recently seceded from the Union, in an effort to negate that secession by violent force.
The historical result of the effort begun that day is well known and indisputable: after four years of brutal warfare, which killed 620,000 Americans, the United States negated the secession of the Confederate States of America, and forcibly re-enrolled them into the Union. The Civil War ended slavery, left the South in economic ruins, and set the stage for twelve years of military rule there.
Beyond its immediate effects, the Civil War made drastic changes in politics and law that continue to shape our world 130 years later. Arthur Ekirch writes: "Along with the terrible destruction of life and property suffered in four long years of fighting went tremendous changes in American life and thought, especially a decline in [classical] liberalism on all questions save that of slavery. * * * Through a policy of arbitrary arrests made possible by Lincoln's suspension of habeas corpus, persons were seized and confined on the suspicion of disloyalty or of sympathy with the southern cause. Thus, in the course of the Civil War, a total of thirteen thousand civilians was estimated to have been held as political prisoners, often without any sort of trial or after only cursory hearings before a military tribunal."3The Civil War caused and allowed a tremendous expansion of the size and power of the federal government. It gave us our first federal conscription law...
(Excerpt) Read more at apollo3.com ...
The problem was there was not a framework in the constitution for peaceful state succession.
Something that laid down a procedural process in where a state may petition and successfully leave the unio9n on it’s own should it see fit and how to re-distribute the federal property back tot he other states and what portion stays with the state that is leaving.
In some way we could use an amendment that would lay out a process for a state leaving that would be an orderly framework with built in checks and balances to prevent a wat breaking out by a reckless succession.
Not quite; the problem is that if a state cannot legally secede then the civil war was Treason because they were still states if the union.
Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.
It is interesting that no confederate officers (or the governors, or confederate president) was convicted of treason; see wikipedia for the list of people convicted of treason.
The power of the federal government shall not be challenged.
Since, the power of the US Federal Government, relies upon US the people, you are correct.
A woman enters into marriage with a man who becomes increasingly controlling and tyrannical. She says she wants a divorce, and leaves. He hunts her down, beats her almost to death, drags her back home in chains, and hobbles her so she can never leave again.
And the Northerners wonder why we will never forgive or forget.
The greatest among the Founders were from Virginia: Washington, Jefferson, Madison, Mason. They would cry to see what the Federal government has become, and it started with the Civil War.
“The problem was there was not a framework in the constitution for peaceful state succession.”
This is a false statement. The procedure for the secession of a state was the same procedure used for the accession of a state. The secession or the alienation of a state or its territory required the same legislative acts in Congress and the states as were used for the accession of a state to the Union.
My empathy is well lost- by your sadly misplaced core understanding, of true human nature. Unless, you are a pimp? Right, redone?
“A woman enters into marriage with a man who becomes increasingly controlling and tyrannical. She says she wants a divorce, and leaves. He hunts her down, beats her almost to death, drags her back home in chains, and hobbles her so she can never leave again.”
All of which is a totally false and self-serving analogy. To secede from the Union, a state was obligated by the Articles of Confederation and the Constitution to obtain the consent of Congress and each of the States in the Union in the same manner as was used for accession of that State to the Union.
I don’t remember reading the procedure for leaving the union mentioned in the copy of the Constitution I read. Perhaps you could point me to the article that specifically says what you stated, or are you just making it up?
The following excerpt from the U.S. Constitution provides the authorization to add a new state and to “make all needful Rules and Regulations respecting the Territory or other Property belonging to the United States....”, and the secession of a State from the Union is a direct disposition of the Territory of the United States that required the consent of the Congress assembled and the States upon accession or annexation of the same State.
Constitution of the United States
Article. IV.
Section. 3.
New States may be admitted by the Congress into this Union; but no new State shall be formed or erected within the Jurisdiction of any other State; nor any State be formed by the Junction of two or more States, or Parts of States, without the Consent of the Legislatures of the States concerned as well as of the Congress.
The Congress shall have Power to dispose of and make all needful Rules and Regulations respecting the Territory or other Property belonging to the United States; and nothing in this Constitution shall be so construed as to Prejudice any Claims of the United States, or of any particular State.
Doesn’t matter. Civil War gave rise to military industrial complex.
Which now runs US government.
There is nothing there that prevents secession or even addresses it, only accession of states or changes within a state.
“and the secession of a State from the Union is a direct disposition of the Territory of the United States”
That is the part you made up. If a state leaves the union it is no longer the territory of the United States. I see it differently than you do. I think it is ludicrous to expect a state that wants to leave the union to have to get everybody else’s permission to go their own way. Since the constitution does not mention secession, and since the 10th Amendment says powers not granted to the federal government by the Constitution, nor prohibited to the States, are reserved to the States or the people, I believe that is where the power to secede lies and states should be able to leave the union as they wish with or without the federal government’s blessing.
It looks to me like bankers have been running it lately, military not so much.
There is good reason why it was called a war of northern aggression.
Both sides committed treason if you stick strictly to the definition.
If Lincoln had not opposed the secession and offered a peaceful separation, there would be no reason to call anyone a traitor.
Not applicable to sovereign states as it presupposes that the state is Territory or other Property belonging to the United States
.
I like to call it The War for Federal Supremacy
.
Both sides committed treason if you stick strictly to the definition.
I notice the plurality in the definition of treason, namely them
, in reference to the United States; the federal government is a single entity and it could therefore be argued that attacking it is not treason.
It will all get sorted in the wash.
That is a false statement. Secession without the consent of Congress was prohibited by:
The Articles of Confederation
Article I. The Stile of this Confederacy shall be “The United States of America.”
Article II. Each state retains its sovereignty, freedom, and independence, and every Power, Jurisdiction, and right, which is not by this confederation expressly delegated to the United States, in Congress assembled.
Article XIII. Every State shall abide by the determination of the united States in congress assembled, on all questions which by this confederation are submitted to them. And the Articles of this confederation shall be inviolably observed by every State, and the union shall be perpetual; nor shall any alteration at any time hereafter be made in any of them; unless such alteration be agreed to in a congress of the united States, and be afterwards confirmed by the legislatures of every State.
And Whereas it hath pleased the Great Governor of the World to incline the hearts of the legislatures we respectively represent in Congress, to approve of, and to authorize us to ratify the said articles of confederation and perpetual union. Know Ye that we the undersigned delegates, by virtue of the power and authority to us given for that purpose, do by these presents, in the name and in behalf of our respective constituents, fully and entirely ratify and confirm each and every of the said articles of confederation and perpetual union, and all and singular the matters and things therein contained: And we do further solemnly plight and engage the faith of our respective constituents, that they shall abide by the determinations of the united States in congress assembled, on all questions, which by the said confederation are submitted to them. And that the articles thereof shall be inviolably observed by the States we respectively represent, and that the union shall be perpetual.
As the above excerpt states, “Every State shall abide by the determination of the united States in congress assembled, on all questions which by this confederation are submitted to them. And the Articles of this confederation shall be inviolably observed by every State, and the union shall be perpetual; nor shall any alteration at any time hereafter be made in any of them; unless such alteration be agreed to in a congress of the united States, and be afterwards confirmed by the legislatures of every State.” Under the authority of the Articles of Confederation the States engaged “in the name and in behalf of our respective constituents, fully and entirely ratify and confirm each and every of the said articles of confederation and perpetual union” and committed the same to the oath “And we do further solemnly plight and engage the faith of our respective constituents, that they shall abide by the determinations of the united States in congress assembled, on all questions, which by the said confederation are submitted to them. And that the articles thereof shall be inviolably observed by the States we respectively represent, and that the union shall be perpetual.”
The legal definition of “perpetual” is never ceasing, continuous, enduring, lasting, unlimited in respect of time, continuing without intermission or interval (Black's Law Dictionary). A Union is a joinder of separate entities (Black's Law Dictionary). A perpetual Union is therefore “expressly delegated to the United States, in Congress assembled “ as a (federal) joinder of separate entities (States) never ceasing, continuous, enduring, lasting, and unlimited in respect of time; unless such alteration be agreed to in a congress of the united States, and be afterwards confirmed by the legislatures of every State.”
The proponents of unilateral secession then proceed to raise objections to the authority of the Articles of Confederation, but such objections are invalidated by the Constitution and the general principles of the law of nations.
Constitution of the United States
Article. VI.
All Debts contracted and Engagements entered into, before the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be as valid against the United States under this Constitution, as under the Confederation.
This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.
The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.
The legal definition of an “Engagement” is “a contract or agreement characterized by an exchange of mutual promises; e.g. engagement to marry (Black's Law Dictionary).
As seen above in the Articles of Confederation, the States entered into an agreement giving their mutual promises: “we do further solemnly plight and engage the faith of our respective constituents, that they shall abide by the determinations of the united States in congress assembled, on all questions, which by the said confederation are submitted to them. And that the articles thereof shall be inviolably observed by the States we respectively represent, and that the union shall be perpetual.” The Constitution then confirmed “All Debts contracted and Engagements entered into, before the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be as valid against the United States under this Constitution, as under the Confederation.” Consequently, the Constitution is very explicit in stating the Union shall be as perpetual as it was with the Engagement of the States under the Articles of Confederation. Any alteration of this perpetual Union therefore requires the consent of the Congress assembled as stated in the Articles of Confederation: And the Articles of this confederation shall be inviolably observed by every State, and the union shall be perpetual; nor shall any alteration at any time hereafter be made in any of them; unless such alteration be agreed to in a congress of the united States, and be afterwards confirmed by the legislatures of every State.”
While the “Constitution Article. VI. All Debts contracted and Engagements entered into, before the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be as valid against the United States under this Constitution, as under the Confederation,” states the Engagement in a perpetual Union “shall be as valid against the United States under this Constitution, as under the Confederation,” it furthermore states, “Constitution of the United States, Article. I.,
Section. 8. The Congress shall have Power [....] To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions; [....] To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.”
One of those powers delegated by the Constitution to Congress is:
“Constitution of the United States. Article. IV.
Section. 3. The Congress shall have Power to dispose of and make all needful Rules and Regulations respecting the Territory or other Property belonging to the United States; and nothing in this Constitution shall be so construed as to Prejudice any Claims of the United States, or of any particular State.”
The unilateral secession of a State whose Engagement in the Articles of Confederation and the Constitution faithfully promised “the union shall be perpetual” constitutes the “Prejudice any Claims of the United States” had with respect to “rights and privileges” the perpetual Union of the United States to exercise the “Power to dispose of and make all needful Rules and Regulations respecting the Territory or other Property belonging to the United States.”
Such a unilateral secession of a State from its Engagement in the perpetual Union of the United States also constitutes a Prejudice of a number of other powers delegated to the United States and the other States in the Union by the Constitution, not the least of which is:
Constitution of the United States.
Section. 8.
The Congress shall have Power
To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions; [....]
So, the Constitution contains numerous powers delegated to the United States which are Prejudiced by a State acting to unilaterally secede in rebellion and thereby Prejudice the rights, duties, and obligations of the United States and its member States.
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