A Bizarre Conspiracy Theory: Why Some People Think the Roman Empire Never Existed ["Have we ruled out stupidity?" -- Lucy Van Pelt]

Popular Mechanics ^ | January 29, 2024 | Caroline Delbert

[SunkenCiv]

A TikTok contrarian once made waves with a bold claim that the Roman Empire wasn't real—something she later tried to walk back by saying her original video was just a "metaphor." But her timelines and writings are full of strong claims about ancient Rome, with just enough factual evidence that she might seem credible.

To be clear, the Roman Empire was real, and acknowledging the evidence and impact of that period of rule is vital to the histories of people the ancient Romans subjugated over a millennium...

In one now-deleted video, writer Donna Dickens—who goes by @momllennial_ and @momllennial_returns on TikTok, and @MildlyAmused before she was suspended from Twitter—shows a very famous poem fragment variably known as the Gallus fragment, the Gallus papyrus, or the Qasr Ibrim papyrus. Gallus is the poet whose work is shown on the fragment, while Qasr Ibrim is the archaeological dig where the fragment was unearthed in modern-day southern Egypt...

In her video, Dickens insists: "Dude, that's Greek. Are y'all blind? Just, like, all of you?" Dickens' video has been deleted, but her claim, like the papyrus, survives on. Maxwell Paule, a Roman classicist who teaches ancient and classical studies at Earlham College in Indiana, included it in a response video on his TikTok. "This is the Qasr Ibrim papyrus, and it's really famous, and it's definitely written in Latin. But you can read that yourself," Paule explains in the video. "'Maxima romanae': it doesn't get more Latin than that."

[SunkenCiv]

• Museum of Hoaxes: Jean Hardouin [ Roman Empire a medieval hoax ] [07/15/2009]
  • Phantom Time Hypothesis: Dark Ages Never Happened [03/10/2022]
  • The Marxist Origin of Wokism: The Hideous Face of Revolution [11/17/2023]
  • History as Therapy: Alternative History and Nationalist Imaginings in Russia (Post-Soviet Society) [01/14/2018]
• Atheists Skeptical of Atwill's Claim of a 'Fabricated Jesus' [10/11/2013]
  • Who Wrote Shakespeare? [06/07/2010]
• On the "Roman Piso" Theory | J.P. Holding at Tektonics
  • Roman Piso | Rational Wiki
• Books, Magazines, Movies, Music [07/11/2004]

[SunkenCiv]

The 2024 Roman Empire keyword entries, sorted:

• New find hints Wales fully integrated into Roman Britain [08/10/2024]
• "Bravery cannot be victorious unless it is arrayed along with justice." ~ Belisarius's speech at Abydos, AD 533 [08/10/2024]
• Bars and Restaurants in Ancient Rome [9:02] [08/08/2024]
• Cache of Roman Coins Discovered in Poland [08/02/2024]
• Roman-Era Sarcophagus Discovered on Varna Beach one of Bulgaria's Most Popular Tourist Destinations [08/01/2024]
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• Opulent Roman Floor Uncovered in the Gulf of Naples [07/30/2024]
• Ancient Roman Medical Tools Studied News [07/29/2024]
• Archaeologists make 'unprecedented' discovery after unsealing a 2,000-year-old tomb [07/26/2024]
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• Following the Longest Roman Aqueduct [sic] [3:20] [07/21/2024]
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• Rome Unwrapped - Pompeii - 4K [07/20/2024]
• Archaeologists find records of Pompeii survivors that reveal how they rebuilt their lives [07/19/2024]
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• Augustus' Spanish Wars and the Monument of Numerius Agrestinus Equitius Pulcher Recently Discovered in Pompeii [07/19/2024]
• Bulgarian archaeologists find marble god in ancient Roman sewer [07/18/2024]
• The Forgotten Roman Wall. [13:35] [07/15/2024]
• Site of 'Clash' Between Spartacus and Roman Army Discovered in Italy [07/14/2024]
• Missing pieces of 6th-century Byzantine bucket finally found at Sutton Hoo [07/12/2024]
• The Roman Emperor Who Broke the Nose of Alexander the Great's Corpse [07/07/2024]
• Sejanus [06/30/2024]
• Bronze and Silver Coin Hoard Discovered in Central Israel [06/29/2024]
• Secrets of 2000-year-old Analog Computer Revealed With Help From Gravitational Wave Technology [Antikythera mechanism] [06/28/2024]
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• Archaeologists make 'stunning' find of banquet hall in Pompeii [04/12/2024]
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• This Ancient Food Could Help Keep Astronauts Alive on Long Haul Space Missions [04/10/2024]
• Roman gold hoard suggests Nordic connection to network of European elite [04/09/2024]
• 'Remarkable' concealed Roman villa unearthed [Oxfordshire] [04/02/2024]
• Ancient warehouse -- from first Roman city outside Italy -- discovered in France. See it [Narbonne / Narbonensis] [04/01/2024]
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• 2,000-year-old Hasmonean coin discovered by child evacuated on Oct.7 [03/18/2024]
• March 16 ~ Anniversary of the Assassination of Valentinian III in AD 455 [03/16/2024]
• Marine Archaeologists Discover 10 Shipwrecks, Including One From Roman Era [03/16/2024]
• 222: Elagabalus [03/11/2024]
• Belisarius and Procopius celebrate the defeat of the Goths at the Siege of Rome, March of AD 538 [03/09/2024]
• Evidence that Pontius Pilate Converted to Christianity [03/08/2024]
• Italian Catholics reverting to ancient Roman gods, seers and sorcerers [03/05/2024]
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• Astronomy Picture of the Day - Julius Caesar and Leap Days [02/29/2024]
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• 1,800-year-old Roman tombs in Bulgaria included medallion featuring an emperor and glass bottles for collecting mourners' tears [02/22/2024]
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• PAS reports on wealth of archaeological treasures found in UK [02/19/2024]
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• Wooden furniture of Herculaneum preserved from Vesuvius [9:21] [02/13/2024]
• Archaeologists Find Evidence of Hallucinogenic Drug in Ancient Rome [02/13/2024]
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• Ancient skeletons buried with gold jewelry and expensive leather shoes found in newly discovered Roman necropolis in Italy [01/15/2024]
• "Julius Caesar" inscribed sling bullet found in Montilla [01/14/2024]
• Explore the secret rooms of the Pantheon [11:00] [01/09/2024]
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[ClearCase_guy]

[SunkenCiv]

The other GGG topics added since the previous digest ping, alpha:

• Bars and Restaurants in Ancient Rome [9:02] [08/08/2024]
• Cerberus: Guard Dog of the Underworld in Ancient Greek Mythology [08/09/2024]
• Cracking the Code of Life: New AI Model Learns DNA's Hidden Language [08/07/2024]
• Did Humans Move Stonehenge Bluestones? Boulder Discovery Raises Doubts [08/07/2024]
• Divers Found a 3,000-Year-Old Statue at the Bottom of a Lake -- With Fresh Human Fingerprints [08/10/2024]
• Early Neolithic Settlement Uncovered in Czech Republic [08/10/2024]
• 4,000-year-old rock art in Venezuela may be from a 'previously unknown' culture [08/08/2024]
• Gold Coin Cache Discovered at Ancient Greek City in Anatolia [08/09/2024]
• How An Important 1877 Soldier's Diary Wound Up In A Wyoming Bank Vault [08/08/2024]
• Incredibly Tiny New Fossil Arm Bone May Resolve Mystery Of Ancient Hobbits' Family Tree [08/06/2024]
• 'It Signifies Pestilence': Scholars Decipher 4,000-Year-Old Tablets [08/07/2024]
• The Kyujo Incident (1945) - The Last 24 Hours of World War II - Full Documentary [01/08/2023]
• Man Destroyed a 6,000-Year-Old Cave Painting for a Facebook Photo [08/08/2024]
• More States Reject College Board's Politicized Dual-Credit Classes [08/06/2024] (Common Core)
• Mosaic Floor Featuring Satyrs Uncovered on Greek Island [08/09/2024]
• National Book Lovers Day -- August 9, 2024 (What Are You Reading?) [08/09/2024]
• New discoveries in human origins [08/04/2024]
• New find hints Wales fully integrated into Roman Britain [08/10/2024]
• The Quick and the Curious: Discover the Mysterious New Creatures of the Deep Sea [08/06/2024]
• Roman ingots to shield particle detector [ Italian neutrino experiment ] [06/11/2010]
• Thought To Be Exclusive to Humans: Scientists Uncover Remarkable Cognitive Skills of Fruit Bats [08/07/2024]
• 2,600-Year-Old Water System Infrastructure Unearthed in India [08/10/2024]
• Why Scientists Are Going Bonkers Over Four 38-Million-Year-Old Wyoming Snakes [08/06/2024]
• "World's Oldest Calendar" May Depict Catastrophic Comet Impact 13,000 Years Ago [08/07/2024]

[lasereye]

Well then we can throw out much of the New Testament. Pontius Pilate must have been Greek! Are all the Roman emperors fictitious? Why was Paul sent to Rome by King Agrippa? I mean Rome wasn’t in charge of anything. Etc.

[cgbg]

Obscure fact:

Philip K. Dick (science fiction writer) claimed the exact opposite of the title of this thread.

He claimed the Roman Empire never ended in his very strange book “Valis”.

[ProtectOurFreedom]

I KNEW this headline was going to be “A Bizarre Conspiracy Theory: Why Some People Think the Secret Service Intentionally Stood Down”

But I was wrong.

[Jamestown1630]

“Metaphor”?

That’s even worse than ‘rhetorical advocacy’:

https://gazette.com/opinion/column-rhetorical-advocacy-is-license-to-lie-mike-rosen/article_b0ec7a96-da05-11ed-93eb-73a48285b5af.html

[PGR88]

How did the Roman Empire get cut in half?

A pair of Caesars.

[Deaf Smith]

Tik Tok…

Does this story hold the same weight as the Tide Pod Challenge?:

[Dr. Sivana]

He claimed the Roman Empire never ended in his very strange book “Valis”.

He agrees with Hilaire Belloc, an historian/writer, who claimed the same thing earlier. It's not like Gibbons' date was recognized as such by the people living there at the time.

[HIDEK6]

I’m going to add that to my Ancient Roman Jokes collection.

[HYPOCRACY]

“https://youtu.be/Qc7HmhrgTuQ?feature=shared“

[SunkenCiv]

LOL

[SunkenCiv]

LOL

[Olog-hai]

The earth is as old as we are; no older. How could it be older? Nothing exists except through human consciousness.

O'Brien, 1984

The world sure does have a lot of Ingsoc types in it today.

[SunkenCiv]

See the Atwill link above.

[Republican Wildcat]

Well at least the phrase “Rome wasn’t built in a day” can still be true...if it wasn’t ever built.

[tsowellfan]

Well, tell those Roman-deniers to Dream On.

VIDEO: Steve Tyler (Aerosmith) perform Live at Roman Colosseum, Rome Italy 2017

Dream On (Roaman Collosseum - still in business)

https://youtu.be/EnDbHi9-EA8?si=iyAK0Rlg_W5oG82Q

[Dr. Sivana]

I plugged into Google Translate the short phrases Paule identifies in his video, and “Fata mihi Caesar, . . . Maxima Romanae” translates to, “fate for me is Caesar, the greatest of the Romans.”

I do not know if Google Translate was attempting to be idiomatic, but my 40 year old studies of basic Latin tells me that with the exception of some oddball words, The first declension "Romanae" can be either genitive singular (possessive), dative singular (indirect object) or nominative plural (subject). If you want to say of the Romans, you would use Romanarum. Except for one thing: as in Standard English, the generic form for Romans plural would be Masculine. Hence, you would use Romanorum.

So, since it is feminine, I believe that the ellipsis is crucial, likely with feminine Fate being the Roman. I would need the whole quotation and a serious Latin dictionary (Lewis & Short) and possibly an Allen & Greenough Latin Grammar(great for obscure uses of the Dative) to come up with something authoritative.