proposal: presidential resignation + emergency special runoff harris-pence election

all other alternatives to an emergency special election seem to end in some form of violence or permanent dislocation of one main party or the other.

a re-election would be fine but suffers from the flaw that it invites a repeat in the forseeable future simply by the precedent that it sets.

holding an emergency election between the two top second tier contestants is not ideal but there is no ideal alternative. this alternative might be the fairest among the hobbesian universe of unequally unfair choices that do not ultimately involve a government collapse.

if the two major parties agree, emergency legislation could be passed in time for a short campaign, a one day election, a foreshortened but otherwise normal electoral college process, and an inauguration by january 20.

trump and biden negotiate and agree for the benefit of the country to sit this one out and let their seconds battle peacefully for the presidency. it is not a re-co and so forms an generally unpalatable precedent for all future parties in all future elections. there will be less temptation to repeat this emergency election, and the temptation to set a vanilla repeat election which would lead to an unwise precedent is removed.

major parties don't have to agree on much except for the situation to be an emergency requiring extraordinary measures to recover from the emergency. if there is not enough time, then the inauguration and other deadlines could be moved forwards by a couple of months, by mutual agreement.

we pro trump people believe that trump won the election.

likewise, many pro biden people are likely to believe or at least claim that biden won the election.

this might well remain a stalemate since the ballot envelopes were in many cases separated from ballots, and so forth, forever obscuring who the real winners were, at least from a judicial point of view (preponderance of evidence, avoiding statistical arguments). it is a logical brick wall.

when neither party can determine with certainty the truth of the matter beyond their own feelings and a random assortment of inconclusive indicators pointing in different directions, some form of re-vote may be called for to resolve the contest.

biden, the nominal winner on paper at this point, might cry foul with some legitimacy since a re-vote is to some degree a second bite of the apple. so biden could be appeased by some offering from trump— a concession. the only concession i can think of is for trump to relinquish his current claim to the presidency. trump could however then turn around and ask biden to do the same in the spirit of fair play. to be fair, in the ideal at least, biden should agree to that. they both could in a sense rise above their personal ambitions for the good of the country. both stepping aside would then clear the field for a pence-harris contest. pence-harris for expediency to save time. pence and harris would be allowed to choose their VPs in accelerated respective party procedures.

so a lot of this is using the principle of reciprocity in negotiation to forestall worse mutually agreed upon as worse outcomes if an agreement is not reached.

harris not being top tier works to the pro trump camp’s favor. she is flat out unpopular in her own party.

i wonder about biden’s cabinet choices. most people of honor should in theory avoid signing onto committing to a biden cabinet. it is equivalent to signing onto an illegitimate agreement. i wonder if he is having to settle for less than top tier talent for his cabinet.

> Any sort of compromise or concession will be devastating. No quarter, no retreat. President Trump won in an unprecedented land slide. That HAS to be enough for the republic.

Maybe but it is just that the other side may feel the t same way and there might not be a rational way to prove which side is right due to spoilage of ballots. i have posited a solution based on (1) the presumption that too many ballots were spoiled for either side to make a conclusive rational based proof acceptable to the other side; (2) the constitution can be modified slightly in very limited fashion to guide us over the current difficulties; and (3) find some compromise in the spirit of reciprocity to save all concerned larger pain of a solution in which one side feels permanently injured.

if we believe we are in the right, then we should have faith in our ability to prevail again in a fair re-vote. in a fair re-vote if we lose then we must deserve to lose.
so under a re-vote the forces of good have little to lose.

the re-vote must be fair (so no mail in votes, no delayed acceptance) (ideally, voter id too, or at least a carryover of previous local practices in regard to voter registration).

SteveH
we pro trump people believe that trump won the election.

likewise, many pro biden people are likely to believe or at least claim that biden won the election.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Ransomnote: We can’t have our own realities and live by our own personal separate realities, although the Dems have tried to do that since Trump won in 2016.

We can’t determine the outcome of an election based on preferred beliefs. Courts, evidence and testimony are needed to prove which camp has sufficient evidence to prove their position (Trump, because he won about 3 out of every 4 votes, and his vote count matches observed reality leading up to Election day).

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

SteveH
this might well remain a stalemate since the ballot envelopes were in many cases separated from ballots, and so forth, forever obscuring who the real winners were, at least from a judicial point of view (preponderance of evidence, avoiding statistical arguments). it is a logical brick wall.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

ransomnote
Why are you employing the MSM/Left tactic of purposefully ignoring videos, witness testimony, collected evidence, analysis including support documents re Dominion software, expert testimony, etc. All that and you want to limit this discussion to missing envelopes?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

SteveH
when neither party can determine with certainty the truth of the matter beyond their own feelings and a random assortment of inconclusive indicators pointing in different directions, some form of re-vote may be called for to resolve the contest.

~~~~~~~~~~

Ransomnote
No. We can just reference mountains of objective evidence gathered from many, many different sources and types.

~~~~~~~~~~

SteveH
biden, the nominal winner on paper at this point, might cry foul with some legitimacy since a re-vote is to some degree a second bite of the apple. so biden could be appeased by some offering from trump— a concession. the only concession i can think of is for trump to relinquish his current claim to the presidency.

~~~~~~~~~

Ransomnote
Only China and the MSM really are invested in falsely portraying Biden the winner and that’s because the MSM is falsely claiming the right to ‘call’ the winner. 3/4 of voters did not vote for Biden.

Trump won’t concede an election in a race he won with overwhelming majority and he won’t concede our country to traitors who will kill/enslave us.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
SteveH

trump could however then turn around and ask biden to do the same in the spirit of fair play.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

ransomnote
Biden stole the election - he bragged about stealing the election. Biden doesn’t “do” fair play - he’s actively undermining the will of the overwhelming majority.

Biden is trying to hand AMerica to China (coup). China owns the Biden family and would never allow its puppets do engage in fair play. This is war.

This is war and you don’t know it or are choosing not to admit it. You then suggest we submit to those who want to kill us, but do so in the name of ‘fair play’.

There’s no pointing my responding to the rest of your bizarre post.

i went through years of school being the smallest in my class. it gives me a familiarity with certain kinds of people who are accustomed to use threatening words and who threaten to back it up with their physical might. needless to say, i am still standing and still thriving after all those years of being bullied by others who happened to be both larger than myself and belligerent.

i won’t bore you with stories but i am very accustomed to handling myself well around bullies as well as people who deliver threats and insults when they feel safe from harm. hint— i am still standing and still thriving. you can use your imagination as to what happened to the others.

i remind you that i was addressing a real situation with a real constructive solution. i did not know you. you entered into the conversation. you called me — i won’t repeat it, but in my opinion, people who use insults and name calling without provocation or even knowing who they are addressing are themselves stepping into the gutter and covering themselves with slime.

now once again please just back off and just go in peace. i apologize if i have offended you. now please leave me alone. you can think what you want of me.

i hope that is not too much to ask. i pay a fair price for the privilege of being on this forum. i support a safe internet environment, free from bullying. peace.

> Ransomnote: We can’t have our own realities and live by our own personal separate realities, although the Dems have tried to do that since Trump won in 2016.

No but we should at least make a good faith effort to empathize with those who think differently from us (if we are to avoid solutions involving violence).

> We can’t determine the outcome of an election based on preferred beliefs. Courts, evidence and testimony are needed to prove which camp has sufficient evidence to prove their position (Trump, because he won about 3 out of every 4 votes, and his vote count matches observed reality leading up to Election day).

The ballots are contested and the ballot process was not followed. The tab processing was not followed. I could argue that we are partially to blame because we collectively did not exert enough effort to guarantee fair elections in the past when the problems could have been nipped in the bud. I am addressing the current situation to minimize violence. The election leaves us all in an unstable state. There is a lack of accountability which goes back to process problems. Counts, recounts, audits, and statistical arguments won’t realistically resolve all of those problems, in or out of court, to the level of certainty required of acceptance by both parties. That is an empathetic viewpoint. We need however to be able to imagine ourselves in the places of our fellow citizens who honestly voted for biden and give them every benefit of considering all of their legitimate arguments and concerns. If both sides are honest they might be able to agree that an accurate vote count is fairly impossible now. Start from there and find a peaceful resolution that is fair to the main bodies of both parties (if not to all candidates).

> ransomnote
Why are you employing the MSM/Left tactic of purposefully ignoring videos, witness testimony, collected evidence, analysis including support documents re Dominion software, expert testimony, etc. All that and you want to limit this discussion to missing envelopes?

I am not ignoring them. they attest to the uncertainty of the tabulation to a lesser or larger degree. collectively, to a degree that the true vote cannot be rationally argued due to lack of logs, procedures, spoilages, etc. Yes that was by design but no, the average democrats were victimized too. yes, a small cadre of them were dishonest but many (most likely a vast majority) were deceived and cheated also. they were cheated because someone tipped the scales in their favor. in a fair world, one which we must always strive to construct and maintain, tipping the scales cheats all sides— fundamentally immoral to any honest person, who if honest must reject any ill gotten gains.

> Ransomnote
No. We can just reference mountains of objective evidence gathered from many, many different sources and types.

yes, the evidence points to cheating. but logically many of the tracks are covered. logs were not kept or deleted. without logs, full data recovery is not possible. without full data recovery, we simply won’t be able to know with absolute certainty the final count or in many cases the final winner. we could in some cases extrapolate from statistics. however, elections are not really intended from the beginning to be determined statistically. they are designed to be determined absolutely from the initial vote through the process to the final absolute tallies. we need what we don’t have, and which we can never get, although we were supposed to get. period. shouting louder does not change the math which is in the absolute rendered inconclusive.

> Ransomnote
Only China and the MSM really are invested in falsely portraying Biden the winner and that’s because the MSM is falsely claiming the right to ‘call’ the winner. 3/4 of voters did not vote for Biden.

see above. adversarial third parties are hovering, yes. but we need to resolve this peacefully if possible with each other and keep the adversarial third parties away.

> Trump won’t concede an election in a race he won with overwhelming majority and he won’t concede our country to traitors who will kill/enslave us.

I personally don’t know what trump will do but my best guess as i mentioned in a previous response is that he will do whatever he can to try to find a peaceful solution, even at sacrifice to his own person. Many great politicians of the past have sought peaceful solutions in a similar manner and made similar great personal sacrifices for the greater good.

> ransomnote
Biden stole the election - he bragged about stealing the election. Biden doesn’t “do” fair play - he’s actively undermining the will of the overwhelming majority.

He might have bragged once. Some initially claimed he was suffering from dementia. I usually give someone a break unless they are repeat offenders. So it’s disputed as to whether biden misspoke or confessed from my POV. Further evidence may be brought to bear that might sway me. people do occasionally misspeak. And it can happen at the worst times.

> Biden is trying to hand AMerica to China (coup). China owns the Biden family and would never allow its puppets do engage in fair play. This is war.

> This is war and you don’t know it or are choosing not to admit it. You then suggest we submit to those who want to kill us, but do so in the name of ‘fair play’.

Those are serious allegations against biden. If true he deserves his day in court. We still have the principle of innocence until proven guilty, as uncomfortable as this may lead us to be under trying circumstances such as these. I might agree or not with you, but my beliefs do not matter since it has not yet been adjudicated in a court of law.

> There’s no pointing my responding to the rest of your bizarre post.

Sorry you feel that way.

> You ignore the overwhelming evidence available because it’s the only way you can pretend this is just a gentleman’s disagreement, the left is fair, and no one is trying to overthrow our elections.

> With such detachment from reality - there’s no point in bothering to respond to your fantasy scenarios.

Almost anything is preferable to war, and almost any war is preferable to civil war.

Or so i have been told by relatives of mine who have actually been in wars.

Have you been in a war? If not, have you ever been subject to the draft and face to face with the prospect of going to war?

You may look down your nose at a gentleman’s demeanor but i think you misunderstand the purpose of a gentlemen’s demeanor. A gentleman’s demeanor has an express purpose of avoiding violence wherever and whenever possible. Violence is a last resort. Avoiding violence can be commendable when done with purpose and a rational endgame. These are not light decisions, to be made with the full force of emotion to the detriment of rationality. Have you studied war history?

My father was served in WWII honorably from start to finish. I asked him once casually a war related question and he gave me a stone cold pacifist sounding answer, to the effect that war was the absolute last resort. I was a bit surprised since I was accustomed to thinking of him as a decorated hero and yada yada. But he was serious with me at that time. All I could do was accept his answer since I did not have any personal experience with war. However i did redouble my efforts to study history because it seemed obvious to me that i had missed something very big and also right under my nose (or else my father was lying to me— this occurred as we were standing in line at a fast food restaurant and he had no reason to lie to me). It was the complete opposite of the answer i had expected from him. he was about 80yo at the time. take it for whatever it is worth. he signed on before pearl harbor and was honorably discharged from the AAC several weeks after VE day.

what if’s don’t cut it.

All your talk about negotiating and pardons depends on being able to trust the other side.

And you can’t do that with the democrats. They’ve proven beyond any doubt that they are NOT trustworthy.

If they were, this election debacle would not be happening. But they’ve been cheating their way into power for decades.

There is no trusting them and there is not negotiating with them. They are liars and evil and you try trusting them are your own risk.

~~~~~~~

well after a point of dissing them so much you just walk away and declare war on them, and they on you, because you make it clear to them that you despise them and talk will not resolve anything, leaving only violent resolution as the only alternative.

war is a last resort when all reasonable negotiation fails.

our problem is really that many of us have not personally suffered from a war on our nation in our lifetimes. we have developed a cavalier attitude towards war, much like the antebellum south prior to the civil war (perhaps iirc as portrayed in the first part of the film gone with the wind). we think it is like a slap in the face and so we slap back twice as hard, and the spat is over.

no, men are tortured wounded and die in war, and for women... it’s worse. war is the last resort when all other reasonable efforts fail.

if you pay close attention to trump’s foreign policy, he is actually a stone cold pacifist.

Harris got chosen because she is a true Ditzhead and was seen as one who would be most easily manipulated when Biden gets eased out of power.

Forget about just protesting the figureheads; their handlers need to be found, targeted and brought out into the light...one way or the other.

As for Empathy....arguing over how best to help the poor is one thing...but agreeing with the homosexual agenda, the abortion on demand acolytes, the tolerance based civil religion being foisted upon us(Which is Masonically or Illuminati inspired) that has no Christ in it are not to be empathized with. Democrats are in a way like Islamists(especially Islamic males)...they advocate policies that actually appeal to our base desires...greed, lust, pride, blood lust and murder while stoking a fear of death and the grave.

A population well salted by Christ will influence even the ungodly to behave more moderately and the country as a whole can resist amorality and those who would manipulate and rule by fear.

In our case, the Evil Progs sense the ABSENSE of Christ’s blood in our spiritual water and our population’s rising fear of death and the grave. Thus we are open to attack and slavery....the pattern seen over and over again in the book of Judges. First infighting and chaos over the loss of consensus, then attacks and attempted subjugation even by the lesser nations. The world wishes to make of Americans collectively into their blind, hair shorn Sampson at work at the Elites’ grist mills....having no hope, no vision beyond the endless turning of their mills.

Time to let our hair grow back and to allow Christ to fill our blinded eyes with new vision!

> Harris got chosen because she is a true Ditzhead and was seen as one who would be most easily manipulated when Biden gets eased out of power.

she has a hastings law degree, clawed her way through the state government bureaucracy, became california AG, etc. perhaps a better choice of words to describe her is an opportunist (and a sharp one at that, dunno).

> Forget about just protesting the figureheads; their handlers need to be found, targeted and brought out into the light...one way or the other.

i just am concerned about the casualness with which we shut out the possibility of reasonable negotiation. once we opt for shutting off negotiation we are in effect opting for civil war.

i will leave off religion discussion since that is always personal.

war knows no boundaries. once started it cannot easily be stopped except by more war, war of complete annihilation. it does not stop at the city limits. it does not stop at the grocery store or at the soccer field. it does not spare our friends, relatives, offspring, parents or grandparents. it does not stop at our bank or hospital.

war does not stop at our property. it is over us in the sky, and under us in the ground. it is in the air we breathe and the water we drink. it deprives us of food fuel medicine and perhaps anything else we need for living. if we need justice, police, help of any sort, forget it. it does not stop for summer heat or winter cold or rain. it does not stop when we dial 911. it does not stop at our kitchen or living room. it does not stop to consult a rule book. it will shame us, humiliate us, make us do abominable things that we will forever keep secret.

war does not stop until we are totally victorious or totally destroyed. and after that those of us who survive have to learn to live again, sometimes as the vanquished under our conquerors... who rewrite history to exclude us as anything but evil. after our physical wounds are healed, those of us who survive, we will carry war with us in our memories for the remainder of our lives. and we will tell our offspring that war is hell, and always the last resort.

i’m not saying war is totally avoidable but that we should all be prepared for the worst if we avoid every negotiation (or do not seek inventive ideas to avoid war).

i hope everyone who advocate stopping all negotiations are fully prepared for all out civil war— as in months ago, and not just extra toilet paper and extra bandaids.

if what i write sounds odd, then please don’t just take my word for it but study history! especially 1860 and 1861 through the first few weeks of our own civil war.

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