SteveH
we pro trump people believe that trump won the election.
likewise, many pro biden people are likely to believe or at least claim that biden won the election.
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Ransomnote: We can’t have our own realities and live by our own personal separate realities, although the Dems have tried to do that since Trump won in 2016.
We can’t determine the outcome of an election based on preferred beliefs. Courts, evidence and testimony are needed to prove which camp has sufficient evidence to prove their position (Trump, because he won about 3 out of every 4 votes, and his vote count matches observed reality leading up to Election day).
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SteveH
this might well remain a stalemate since the ballot envelopes were in many cases separated from ballots, and so forth, forever obscuring who the real winners were, at least from a judicial point of view (preponderance of evidence, avoiding statistical arguments). it is a logical brick wall.
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ransomnote
Why are you employing the MSM/Left tactic of purposefully ignoring videos, witness testimony, collected evidence, analysis including support documents re Dominion software, expert testimony, etc. All that and you want to limit this discussion to missing envelopes?
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SteveH
when neither party can determine with certainty the truth of the matter beyond their own feelings and a random assortment of inconclusive indicators pointing in different directions, some form of re-vote may be called for to resolve the contest.
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Ransomnote
No. We can just reference mountains of objective evidence gathered from many, many different sources and types.
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SteveH
biden, the nominal winner on paper at this point, might cry foul with some legitimacy since a re-vote is to some degree a second bite of the apple. so biden could be appeased by some offering from trump— a concession. the only concession i can think of is for trump to relinquish his current claim to the presidency.
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Ransomnote
Only China and the MSM really are invested in falsely portraying Biden the winner and that’s because the MSM is falsely claiming the right to ‘call’ the winner. 3/4 of voters did not vote for Biden.
Trump won’t concede an election in a race he won with overwhelming majority and he won’t concede our country to traitors who will kill/enslave us.
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SteveH
trump could however then turn around and ask biden to do the same in the spirit of fair play.
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ransomnote
Biden stole the election - he bragged about stealing the election. Biden doesn’t “do” fair play - he’s actively undermining the will of the overwhelming majority.
Biden is trying to hand AMerica to China (coup). China owns the Biden family and would never allow its puppets do engage in fair play. This is war.
This is war and you don’t know it or are choosing not to admit it. You then suggest we submit to those who want to kill us, but do so in the name of ‘fair play’.
There’s no pointing my responding to the rest of your bizarre post.
> Ransomnote: We can’t have our own realities and live by our own personal separate realities, although the Dems have tried to do that since Trump won in 2016.
No but we should at least make a good faith effort to empathize with those who think differently from us (if we are to avoid solutions involving violence).
> We can’t determine the outcome of an election based on preferred beliefs. Courts, evidence and testimony are needed to prove which camp has sufficient evidence to prove their position (Trump, because he won about 3 out of every 4 votes, and his vote count matches observed reality leading up to Election day).
The ballots are contested and the ballot process was not followed. The tab processing was not followed. I could argue that we are partially to blame because we collectively did not exert enough effort to guarantee fair elections in the past when the problems could have been nipped in the bud. I am addressing the current situation to minimize violence. The election leaves us all in an unstable state. There is a lack of accountability which goes back to process problems. Counts, recounts, audits, and statistical arguments won’t realistically resolve all of those problems, in or out of court, to the level of certainty required of acceptance by both parties. That is an empathetic viewpoint. We need however to be able to imagine ourselves in the places of our fellow citizens who honestly voted for biden and give them every benefit of considering all of their legitimate arguments and concerns. If both sides are honest they might be able to agree that an accurate vote count is fairly impossible now. Start from there and find a peaceful resolution that is fair to the main bodies of both parties (if not to all candidates).
> ransomnote
Why are you employing the MSM/Left tactic of purposefully ignoring videos, witness testimony, collected evidence, analysis including support documents re Dominion software, expert testimony, etc. All that and you want to limit this discussion to missing envelopes?
I am not ignoring them. they attest to the uncertainty of the tabulation to a lesser or larger degree. collectively, to a degree that the true vote cannot be rationally argued due to lack of logs, procedures, spoilages, etc. Yes that was by design but no, the average democrats were victimized too. yes, a small cadre of them were dishonest but many (most likely a vast majority) were deceived and cheated also. they were cheated because someone tipped the scales in their favor. in a fair world, one which we must always strive to construct and maintain, tipping the scales cheats all sides— fundamentally immoral to any honest person, who if honest must reject any ill gotten gains.
> Ransomnote
No. We can just reference mountains of objective evidence gathered from many, many different sources and types.
yes, the evidence points to cheating. but logically many of the tracks are covered. logs were not kept or deleted. without logs, full data recovery is not possible. without full data recovery, we simply won’t be able to know with absolute certainty the final count or in many cases the final winner. we could in some cases extrapolate from statistics. however, elections are not really intended from the beginning to be determined statistically. they are designed to be determined absolutely from the initial vote through the process to the final absolute tallies. we need what we don’t have, and which we can never get, although we were supposed to get. period. shouting louder does not change the math which is in the absolute rendered inconclusive.
> Ransomnote
Only China and the MSM really are invested in falsely portraying Biden the winner and that’s because the MSM is falsely claiming the right to ‘call’ the winner. 3/4 of voters did not vote for Biden.
see above. adversarial third parties are hovering, yes. but we need to resolve this peacefully if possible with each other and keep the adversarial third parties away.
> Trump won’t concede an election in a race he won with overwhelming majority and he won’t concede our country to traitors who will kill/enslave us.
I personally don’t know what trump will do but my best guess as i mentioned in a previous response is that he will do whatever he can to try to find a peaceful solution, even at sacrifice to his own person. Many great politicians of the past have sought peaceful solutions in a similar manner and made similar great personal sacrifices for the greater good.
> ransomnote
Biden stole the election - he bragged about stealing the election. Biden doesn’t “do” fair play - he’s actively undermining the will of the overwhelming majority.
He might have bragged once. Some initially claimed he was suffering from dementia. I usually give someone a break unless they are repeat offenders. So it’s disputed as to whether biden misspoke or confessed from my POV. Further evidence may be brought to bear that might sway me. people do occasionally misspeak. And it can happen at the worst times.
> Biden is trying to hand AMerica to China (coup). China owns the Biden family and would never allow its puppets do engage in fair play. This is war.
> This is war and you don’t know it or are choosing not to admit it. You then suggest we submit to those who want to kill us, but do so in the name of ‘fair play’.
Those are serious allegations against biden. If true he deserves his day in court. We still have the principle of innocence until proven guilty, as uncomfortable as this may lead us to be under trying circumstances such as these. I might agree or not with you, but my beliefs do not matter since it has not yet been adjudicated in a court of law.
> There’s no pointing my responding to the rest of your bizarre post.
Sorry you feel that way.