Posted on 05/07/2016 7:34:23 PM PDT by PinkChampagneonIce
Dear Freeper Preppers:
I have tried to find answers to these questions, and just haven't had much luck. Freepers are always incredibly knowledgeable, so I thought I would throw this out for general comment.
I live somewhat off the grid, in that I live with a bare minimum of electrical appliances. I have a small, motel-sized refrigerator. Its temperature varies. It is so small, that the thermometer will indicate a 5 degree reduction in temperature if I just open the door. During the winter, it is fairly easy to keep it below 40. During the summer, that becomes a challenge. There are many days when the temperature is high that it remains at 45 or so.
The conventional wisdom is that if the temperature rises about 40 the bacteria, germs, microbes, whatever, start growing in food and make it unsafe to eat. As anyone who has lived as I do knows, that is simply not true. For example, sometimes I will buy a pre-cooked rotisserie chicken at the market. It is hot when I buy it, and warm when I put it in the refrigerator. Even if the refrigerator thermometer is showing 45 degrees, the chicken doesn’t automatically “spoil.” If it is in a sealed container/packaging, it is good for at least three days, even though it is chicken, which is considered notoriously likely to spoil. After the three days, I can still use it if I put in in a soup or stew which is boiled for more than 10-15 minutes. I can also refrigerate leftovers for at least 2-3 days without any harmful effects. So just because something is stored below 40 degrees does not necessarily mean that it has spoiled or is dangerous.
Before refrigeration, people used ice boxes. They were insulated, and cooled with blocks of ice. Having done this when I was young on camping trips, I sincerely doubt they maintained a temperature below 40 degrees. Although some people suffered from “summer sickness” from spoiled food, people weren’t dropping like flies. Obviously, some foods are more likely to spoil in a way that causes sickness than others, although this is completely obscured by the modern warnings that anything cooled about 40 degrees is unsafe. I know that in Great Britain, people do not refrigerate items which we are told MUST be refrigerated – for example, jams, mayonnaise, etc. My understanding is that in medieval times spices were prized because they made “tainted” meat palatable.
And so, to my question. For those who have lived off the grid, or in less developed countries, do you have any other guidelines than those which say everything must be cooled below 40 degrees? In your experience, which foods spoil the fastest, and in the most dangerous fashion? Which spoil but are just nasty, not life threatening? In an emergency situation, which foods should be absolutely avoided after a certain time at a certain temperature, and which can be worked with by boiling for 10-15 minutes or charring over an open fire. When is “tainted” meat OK to eat, and when will it kill you?
I’m posting this fairly late in the evening. I’m going to bed, so I won’t be replying to this thread until tomorrow or Monday. I really appreciate your input on this topic.
seeping
refrigerated
I hate spelling errors.
Well, it’s not necessary true that the egg is bad if it floats. I have had eggs that floated that weren’t bad.....my test is that if they smell OK and the yolk doesn’t collapse like water, I use them. Never had a problem.
Garden fall harvest in a deep root cellar and a dehydrator for drying summer crops when its hot. Use glass storage jars for storing your dried crop. Also consider a few 60” tanks of Co2 from your local welding supply for making dry ice in emergencies. Always go with a chest type freezer as suggested in a post above.... and learn to cure and smoke beef , fish, pork . Small chicken coop will keep you in fresh eggs and a fried chicken now and then. Consider as well a small pond you can stock with pan fish. Rainwater collection will keep water available for irrigation of the gardens etc....
Frugal ......just my suggestions, ideas.
First, IMO to get a true reading of the temperature of food in your refrigerator, put a spear-type thermometer (something like this: http://www.amazon.com/Thermometers-Habor-Thermometer-Anti-Corrosion-Best/dp/B0198473E4?ie=UTF8&keywords=thermometer&qid=1462677804&ref_=sr_1_2&s=kitchen&sr=1-2) in a glass of water in the refrigerator. Just keep it in there all the time. You’ll notice that after you open and close the door the temperature doesn’t drop. A refrigerator thermometer isn’t really an accurate measure of the temperature of the food in it. Also, the cheap ones can go bad easily and give false readings.
Second, I’ve kept cooked chicken in the refrigerator for over a week and it was fine. Interesting, and I’ve tested this, food keeps longer in the refrigerator in glass containers. It spoils much faster in plastic.
I highly recommend doing your own testing. All those experts and recommendations are fine, but I’ve found they are often wrong, or misguided.
The units in an above post are very pricy. Shop around on the internet. New small Domestic or Norcold RV units can be found for less than 1k. I know that an RV Store in Theodore, Alabama has small Norcold brand units for less than 1k plus shipping.
If it is for emergency survival, stick with canned goods and rice for minimal shelf loss.
For meat I would dry age it. Worked for our ancestors. No?
Quite true, and a good call for camping supply and travel traiers !
Combination Refrigerator and freezer thermometers can be had for $4 - $5, although quality standards allow for a 5 degree of error.
Bacteria multiplies once the refrig gets warmer than 41 Degrees Fahrenheit or cooler than 140 degrees.(danger zone is 40 F through 140 F).
Rotisserie chicken are generally cooked to 180 F, and should be time and date stamped on the package-generally on the price tag.
Cold air sinks and hot air rises, so the cooler temps in the refrigerator will always be on the bottom, so where you place the thermometer matters to the temp reading.
Coldest and best refridg/or freezer is a top opened appliance.
...old cookbooks that indicate that meat should/could be hanged for days or weeks before use! That some meat was considered a delicacy when it had actually rotted a little?!!!!
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Ever watch the Travel channel programs “Bizarre Food with Andrew Zimmern”? Goes all over the world and shows how people obtain and prepare their food. ...A few nights ago he did a show about NYC and one piece was in the meat market that processes about 1 million pounds per year to supply restaurants everywhere.
After trimming sides of beef, they put some of the portions in a drying room, just wrapped in plastic and not frozen, where they age for 2-3 weeks. The bacteria breaks down the meat and tenderizes it. ....Andrew and the boss of the place were just cutting thin slices off and eating them raw.
Fish and wild game are also air dried in cool climates (not the tropics). ......Wouldn’t work here in Texas!
Interesting thread you started!
My understanding is fresh eggs, straight from the nest and unwashed, keep fine at room temp. We try to eat our birds’ eggs within 2 weeks, and have never had a bad one.
For off grid, or intermittent power, we concentrate on items that need no refrigeration. Canned, dried, individual serving sized items, etc.
There was a time folks used “root cellars” for cooler temps (not 40 degrees cool, though) and running ,ountain streams with cooler boxes placed in them to keep items cool.
With enough preplanning, ice can be made in the winter and stored a long time in underground, heavily insulated areas, an ice house. Works better the further north you are, of course.
On your fridge, you might try stepping up the size a touch or adding 2 to 4” of Styrofoam insulation to all surfaces except the heat exchanger coils, do not forget the door, insulate it too.
I have a small, backup fridge that is about 3’ tall X 2’ wide. It is very energy efficient, and cools very well.
Many meats can be dried and kept indefinitely. Same for fruits and some veggies. A cellar is useful, and in a dry climate almost anything can be easily dried and stored. I’ve dried strawberries, peaches, apricots, mushrooms, cantaloupe and peppers. I grow all organic, dry it in an electrical dehydrator. String pepper on some thread, hang it in a sunny place, a couple of days and they dry, can be kept in a plastic bag or glass jar. Things like peaches work best sliced at least in half. Strawberries picked ripe are better dried than any other way.
Long term storage is best if frozen, as far as meats are concerned. I put it in a zip lock bag, fill it with water and freeze. I have a package of Crappie I froze that way 15 years ago, one dime size freezer burn spot. Berries seem to work best without water, I haven’t tried in water, but it would be more hassle to thaw them. The only better way I know of is vacuum packed.
Make your own jerky. Get some liquid smoke. Soak thin sliced meat in it for 4 to 8 hours. Sprinkle on some cayenne pepper. Lay it out on a cookie sheet, put in oven at 200ºF until dried. Can be stored for months in the pantry. Venison is excellent...beef and pork will work, although I almost never touch pork, not exactly healthy. Fish should work well but I haven’t tried it. Chicken or turkey should work, haven’t tried them either.
Why you should avoid pork
http://draxe.com/why-you-should-avoid-pork/
http://www.ensignmessage.com/archives/porkfacts.html
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2012/12/12/eating-pork.aspx
I rarely touch it. There’s a reason the Bible says do not eat the flesh of the pig, and I don’t think it has anything to do with religion. And I’m not even religious...that doesn’t mean I haven’t read it, and don’t even think about calling me an athiest. I’m not. And I’m just as protective of your religious freedom as you are. I do think the bible has one very important guideline, the golden rule.
Treat others as you would have them treat you.
That is the golden rule according to most of the world’s major religions, many in almost the same words. The rest is commentary. If everyone tried to live that way, the world would be a much better place. IF you don’t want the guy up the road to steal your TV, don’t steal his. It’s that simple. Just ask yourself, would I want him to do this to me? If the answer is no, it’s wrong, don’t do it. Simple.
Now someone explain that to our government...
Hmmm... thanks for that info. I’ve never tested one that floats just assumed it was bad and I got rid of it. Will have to check that out from now on.
Did you check out my link to the Amish made refrigerators and freezers?
Furthermore , avoid the "easy lift top" cans ; if you notice they frequently have an expiration date of 1 year.
For survival foods, get the fully canned product where you need the can opener, even if you have to go to store or 'not advertised' brand product -it'll last longer !
Actually.... that's not quite true. Lots of things produce toxins that aren't removed by boiling.... such as botulism. It grows when non acid things aren't canned properly, or when you put things like garlic in oil and don't refrigerate it.
That said, preserving is done a number of ways, not all of which are by refrigeration. Sugar, salt, acid and dehydration are also preservatives. That's why jams and pickles and beef jerky don't need to be in the fridge. They will keep.... but will eventually grow mold. Salt and drying are ways to preserve meat and fish. Eggs (once shelled) and dairy are prone to spoilage. Mayo in particular will hurt you, which is why things like potato salad get you in the summer.
The truth about refrigeration is that once the temp reaches 45, you have a 4 hour window before mold and bacteria begin growing.( It is cumulative, so boiling resets the clock.)Then they double every hour depending on the temp. At 45 it is slowly, and 125 much faster. The first hour of growth probably won't do much to you... but the 5th hour of warm potato salad will. Fruit pies are ok sitting out, cream pies are not. The reason the stew keeps ok is because it is sterilized by boiling and the lid is left on. I wouldn't trust it for long though.
Get the chest cooler. It will work better. Don't fool around with food poisoning. It isn't fun.
Not yet , but am on my way now !
Also consider 'evaporation refridges', spring house, and consider using 'closed-cell foam' insulation around the outside of the fridge housing, but not the coils ! .
Genuine Amish made products are good products - good call !
I’m pretty brave about what I’ll eat and I’m still alive. (If it doesn’t kill you it will make you stronger.)
However, that doesn’t mean it’s safe to eat anything. Acting on other people’s general experience with pushing the boundaries may kill you.
Be as safe as you can, increase your odds:
http://www.fda.gov/downloads/Food/ResourcesForYou/HealthEducators/UCM109315.pdf
For 1k you can buy a used camper and get a propane refrigerator plus propane stove top with oven and a water heater.
...I’ve kept cooked chicken in the refrigerator for over a week and it was fine. Interesting, and I’ve tested this, food keeps longer in the refrigerator in glass containers. It spoils much faster in plastic.
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Good tip. Thanks
I’ve bought plastic containers of cut/chopped rotisserie chicken from my grocery deli to use for sandwiches. After about three days it didn’t smell real good. I’ll try the glass for storage.
/deep root cellar/
My Dad was in his teens during the Great Depression...
They would cover some vegetables in a furrow (ditch)with dry
hay above and below the vegetables and then covered with at least six inches of dirt...potatoes and probably other root crops...Maw would send him out to dig up a few more pre-harvested potatoes every few days... ( ; )
My understanding is that in war torn Europe...they put other foods in furrows...or at least under ground /cache/(before computing)...rodent and water protection is required...Lewis & Clark lost one cache I believe.
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